Category Archives: Lighting

Stay in Your Lane! | 535 | SheSpoke Founder Joan Barton and Design Tonik’s Amy Theresa

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design featuring an old friend and a new one in a very familiar space, talking about what makes strong bonds and strategic partnerships work. All while staying in your lane.

Joan Barton, founder of Dirty Girl Construction and SheSpoke, a platform that explores the stories and successes woman-owned, operated and worked side of the construction and design industry shared the mic once again with an outstanding creative thinker, Amy Theresa | DesignTonik @DesignTonik.Amy is the founder of Design Tonik, art + design, specializing in residential and commercial interior design, furniture procurement, design consulting and event planning. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

This is a multi-hyphenate company because Amy is a multi-hyphenate creative. Making her perfect fro a conversation with Joan and another exploration into SheSpoke and open and honest conversation by and for women in the built space.

Joan and Amy explore these ideas and talk about the discoveries and changes in the industry since approximately 2017. This is how contacts are made, bonds are formed, partnerships solidified and wok gets done. And done in a selective purposeful way.

This conversation was recorded live from Design Hardware in Los Angeles as part of our Day of Design programming series. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.

Thank you Joan and Amy. Loved this chat and appreciate the time. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well.

Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

Moments of Joy. Design Makes That Happen | 534 | Laura Tribbett, Outline Interiors

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. Today, we’re speaking with Laura Tribbett of Outline Interiors. I have long held the belief that design is a right, not a privilege. You might disagree, but let me explain why and after you hear my conversation with Laura, you might be on board. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Good design is a right, not a privilege. Good design affects all of us, makes communities stronger and it makes for a well lived life. I think many if not most people have no idea what good design is because most people are so heavily influenced by social media and because social media, actually media in general is so heavily influenced by likes, loves and emojis of those who don’t possess an educational background nor expertise on the subject. Anyone can look at an image on Instagram and love it enough to post a fire emoji. Nothing wrong with that but let’s not confuse that with an understanding of how that design might function or how it works with other spaces in the dwelling or how those who live there will use the space. It’s just a picture, they like it. Fine. But it’s really interesting how when enough people like something, it influence others to believe that it is exceptional. It might be, but there is nothing in the posting of an image to support that. Sometimes, this leads to fame for wildly popular designers regardless of whether or not their designs are good. And the measurement for that is how the client is affected by that work. There is a quote from Arthur Conan Doyle’s, The Hound of the Baskervilles in which Sherlock Holmes says, “I know what is good when I see it.”

In this particular case, Holmes is reacting to a portrait. Purely subjective. At the same time, what separates good design form bad? I would say that when you have a trained professional, doing what they have been trained to do on your behalf and influenced by your desires, the results have a good chance of hitting the mark. Why am I telling you this? Because smart, well trained and talented designers understand their roles and can see beyond first level obstacles.

Laura talks about infusing “moments of joy” into every project and that is one of the reasons I enjoy her work ad enjoyed our chat as much as I did. It’s also why I think you are going to love it. 

Thank you, Laura for taking the time to share your story. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. – CXD

He Said, She Said | 533 | Exceptional Hospitality Design feat. Brewco’s Michael Zislis and Designer Noelle Isbell

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a conversation about going home. You’ve heard the old adage, you can’t go home again. Derived from the Thomas Wolfe novel published in 1940, posthumously. It’s true, you can’t go home again because so much changes in your absence. I went home recently to Manhattan Beach. It’s true things change, but not everything and sometimes, change is good.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

I love Manhattan Beach. One of the things I missed most after we moved to Oklahoma was walking down the greenbelt with kids and  getting dinner in downtown MB followed by a trip to the Creamery for an ice cream sandwich the likes of which you just can’t find anywhere else. While there, I stopped into Brewco to speak with Michael Zislis, restaurateur, developer, hotelier and MB devotee. So much so, that through his restaurant and hotel development, has almost singlehandedly reshaped the city for the better over the past 30 years. We talked about the redevelopment of Brewco, an eatery on Manhattan Beach Boulevard and an iconic spot for those who’ve lived there or those who’ve come to visit. you’re going to hear that and then, you are going to hear from Noelle Isbell, Manhattan Beach designer who took on the Brewco project in amazing fashion, called her shot and delivered a spot that is representative of Manhattan Beach’s past, present and future. Turns out, you can go home again. Even if it’s not exactly the same. If you love design, you are going to love this story. If you are a designer, this is how you go and get that project you have always wanted. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.

Thank you, Noelle and Michael, thank you for creating something that makes me feel at home!. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. – CXD

Craftsmanship in A Digital Age | 532 | WestEdge Rewind from 2015

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I’m Josh Cooperman, this is Convo By Design and today, as we inch closer to WestEdge Design Fair, the 2024 edition, with everything going on behind the scenes as we prepare a slate of programming to surprise and delight you, I wanted to share a program from the past. As we finalize the roster  and get everything solidified, I wanted to share the “why” behind the programming. These panels are crafted to feature game changing, disrupting creatives and topics that hold up. What makes the WestEdge stage so special is the thought and effort that goes into the topics. They have all been carefully crafted, talent curated to speak to these ideas. Ideas that should hold up for years to come. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

The program you are going to hear today was called Craftsmanship in the Digital Age. Here is how it was described in the program: Is Craftsmanship a lost art in a world where we increasingly value expediency and accessibility over authenticity and beauty? Join Steven Gambrel, interior designer and co-founder of Dering Hall, as he leads a discussion with some of the most talented artisans and designers working today. How have our digitally-centered lives made us care even more about objects created with passion, skill and time-honored tradition? How do designers create a network of skilled craftspeople and educate their clients about the value craft? Explore the marketing of bespoke products and how digital tools have made success as an artisan more of a reality than ever before.

Featuring Bernard Brucha, MASHstudios; Paul Priven, Zia Priven; Wendy Schwartz, Cuffhome; and Delta Wright, Curated

Think about this for a moment, the program you are about to hear was covering craftsmanship and the value that authenticity holds in made goods. This conversation might as well have taken place in 2020 at the onset of the pandemic when authentic craftsmanship was a must have. Or in 2018, when every design event was discussing how to reach Millennials and their desire for fewer, but more authentic goods. Or, well… now, at a time when hand-made comes at a premium. Again, this was recorded in 2015, live at WestEdge. And I am proud to share this with you again. Right after this.

Thank you, Bernard, Paul, Wendy and Delta. Thank you, Megan and Troy from WestEdge. I enjoyed our conversations so much. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

Timothy Corrigan | 530 | Our September 2024 Design Icon Registry Inductee

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is the September 2024 installment of the Convo By Design Icon Registry featuring another absolutely incredible creative who appeared on the show not once, but I think this gentleman has been on the show 4 times over the past 11 years in every way possible. He has been on a panel, featured in an individual interview, been part of The Showroom series. He’s incredible. This months inductee is an amazing talent a gentleman and a friend. Timothy Corrigan.

I met Tim for the first time, I believe it was 2017. I went to his Los Angeles offices and we spoke about so many things and that is the episode I wanted to share with you today as we induct Tim into the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Somethings you should know about Tim. First, he is one heck of a person. He is one of those people you feel like you’ve known your whole life from the moment you meet him. Second, he already had a stellar career before design in the advertising industry. He led international operations for Saatchi & Saatchi’s Bates Worldwide prior to opening his eponymous design firm in 1998. For reference, Bates Worldwide, in 1998, had billings in excess of $7.7B and operations in 70+ countries with 156+ offices. 

One of the interesting things Tim and I talked about was the Bates Worldwide concept of the USP. Unique Selling Proposition. A concept you see offered everywhere but rarely understood. The idea is that wherever there is competition, one must find the differentiator, the thing that makes them stand out. Something that none else offers. That idea that competitively sets you apart. That others in the field don’t offer. There is far more to the concept but in a world where every designer is an “award winning” designer, Tim allows the work to override the accolades. The irony is not lost on me. To be talking about how it’s not about the accolades, while bestowing accolades, the point is that Ti has always understood his USP, he launched his firm knowing what he wanted, while perhaps not sure how he was going to do it, stayed true to himself and the work and accolades followed. Tim is strong willed, sure of his design ideas and doesn’t seem to have anything to prove. Another reason why I am so fond of Tim Corrigan and so happy to install him as this months inductee to the CXD Icon Registry.

Thank you, Tim for taking the time and the willingness to share your story. Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

Why is it So Hard to Build in California | 527 | How to Prepare in Other States for the Coming Changes

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a detailed conversation about why it is just so hard to build in California. It’s important to say in advance with listeners all over the world that picking California is the canary in the coal-mine. Which is to say that it is an early indicator of potential issues elsewhere because I think it is fair to say that California tries things first, as a rule.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

– Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

It’s somewhat comforting to know that the Golden State remains a place where new ideas are tested. Unless you happen to be one of the brave individuals who is testing those boundaries. My friend Joan Barton is the founder of Dirty Girl Construction and SheSpoke Studio, a place for creative women to tell their stories. So today, this a Convo By Design takeover featuring Joan and an amazing group of women general contractors telling their war stories about building in Los Angeles in particular and California in general. And if you are in New York, Miami, Atlanta, Texas, well, maybe not Texas, but everywhere else, the concepts are on their way to your town soon so give this a listen. Thank you Joan for lading this amazing talk with some extraordinary GC’s, all women and some of the best in the business including; Shannon Sheehan, Laura Howley, Catherine Springer, and Catie Casazza. This was recorded live during the winter 2024 Day of Design event at Design Hardware  and you are going to hear all about it.

My friend and the moderator of the following conversation is Joan Barton of Dirty Girl Construction. Not only is Joan a multi-hyphenate creative. She a GC, musician, creative thinker, futurist, but she is also a terrific person. Wonderful and talented people are often surrounded by other wonderful and talented people, birds of a feather… as the saying goes.  I’m not going to get into introductions , I’m going to let Joan do that part, but here’s what II will say about the following episode of the show. This is an important conversation because many of the reasons it is so challenging to build in California are due to the popularity of the state. This popularity and resulting overcrowding combined with a movement toward self-preservation combine with over zealous governance and natural disasters have led to bloated yet dysfunctional metropolitan management and over-regulation combined with material shortages. It’s a lot and it takes someone very special to articulate it and get to the bottom of it and you’re going to hear from her, them actually, right after this.

Thank you, Joan, Catie, Shannon, and Lauren for taking the time to share your thoughts. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

 

Leading Designers Explain The Ultimate Kitchen | 526 | Live from the Monogram Kitchen in Pacific Sales

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. But you know that and I am thankful that you are listening to the show and joining me on this little journey of ours. And, it is a journey. I was thinking about you this week. If you are listening to the show, you are a designer, architect, manufacturer, in the industry or a design enthusiast and you take time out of your day to listen to the show. I take that as a challenge to provide you with the opportunity to hear from amazing creatives, incredible brand partners and others in this industry all the while in pursuit of sublime design wherever we can find it.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

We are in a fairly weird time right now, I know you feel it the same way I do. We’re all feeling the strange vibes from the economy, politics, social media. But home is refuge. Designers and architects make that happen. In an effort to further drill down on this idea, I host small format events presented and hosted by Pacific Sales and Monogram, the official appliance partners of Convo By Design. I have been working with Pacific Sales in one way or another since the podcast started in 2013. And by Pacific Sales standards, that would make me the rookie amongst their staff. I met up with my friend Shaun Ayala at KBIS this year and he introduced me to the Pacific Sales team that made the journey to Las Vegas. Everyone I met had been with Pacific Sales between 15 and 25 years. These days, when companies open and close or decide to reimagine themselves every year or so, Pacific Sales has been there for their clients and design partners for over 60 years and backed by Best Buy. This is not a commercial, they sponsor the show, absolutely and I am really proud of that. And they do great work, like hosting the event from which the following conversation was recorded. 

The Complete Kitchen. What does that mean? The kitchen has changed in dramatic ways and continues to evolve in previously unimaginable ways. The primary kitchen, dirty or working kitchen, outdoor kitchen, butler’s pantry, wine bar, wet bar, coffee bar… ensuite kitchenette, bathroom beverage center, sport court kitchenette. The idea of kitchen has changed and is limited only by imagination… And budget. We’re going to talk about all of this. Here is who joined me at the Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home showroom in Irvine, California:

Lisa McDennon

Terri Brein

Susan Thiel

Joseph DeCasparis

Jess Jones

Paul Fernandez

Thank you,Michelle, Terri, Jess, Susan, Paul and Joe. Thank you Verzine, Cesar and Shaun with Pacific Sales for hosting the amazing experience. I enjoyed our conversation and cannot wait to see what you do next. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

Jamie Bush | 525 | Our August 2024 Design Icon Registry Inductee

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is the August 2024 installment of the Convo By Design Icon Registry featuring another absolutely incredible creative who appeared on the show. This months inductee is an amazing talent, Jamie Bush.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Jamie and I met at his LA offices quite some time ago, 2018 I think. What struck me most about Jamie then as it does now is the frame of reference he draws against. Growing up on a dairy farm in upstate New York with family members in the creative arts as well. Designers, photographers. Jamie studied architecture in New Orleans, moves out to LA and founds his design company in 2002. This experience of his has given him opposing viewpoints from which to draw his design concepts. Jamie is a deep thinker and and extraordinary. And he doesn’t shy away from giving back. That’s what makes Jamie Bush, a design icon.

Thank you, Jamie for taking the time and the willingness to share your story. Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

A Day of Creative Conversations featuring Women in Essential and Luxury Design from Around the U.S. | 524 | LIVE from Design Hardware in LA, May 2024

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a group of exceptional designers from our Day of Design gathering in Los Angeles in May 2024.

I think designers and architects provide a service that simply cannot be measured in terms of dollars and cents. Especially in an era of fast content, social media perspective that creates a social dysmorphia. We have all become so inextricably tied to the internet and social media that it is truly difficult to differentiate reality form make believe. The following conversations feature designers who met me at Design Hardware in LA for a day of creative thinking and sharing of dynamic design ideas that are shaping the way we design in 2024. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

I have found that f you gather creative types and provide the platform for them to showcase their individual approach to the work, some universal concepts begin to form and you have the opportunity to see what really makes these people special. The reason skilled designers can do what they do is because they possess the ability to silence the noise and focus in on true needs and desires of their clients. This is how they do it.

Letecia Ellis Haywood

Alina Wolhardt

Susie Novak

Mary Patton

Lauren Martin Moro

So much fun, right? Thank you, Lauren, Amy, Letecia, Alina, Mary, Susie. It was not my intent, but this turned out to be an amazing showcase of women designers who are setting the tone for the next phase of our design renaissance! Thank you for taking the time to share your story. I enjoyed our conversation and cannot wait to see what you do next. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

Scott Specht of Specht Novak | 522 | From Modern to Experimental. Next Level Modern Architecture, and it’s Fantastic

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a conversation about architecture. Modern architecture, large and small but all spectacular with architect Scott Specht of Specht Novak Architects.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

– Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

On a recent city visit to Kansas City, I bought a book in a used bookstore. The book is called The Paris Architect. Published in 2013 by Charles Balfoure. It takes place in 1942 Paris and revolves around an architect and creative architecture used to save Jews from the Nazis. Of course there is more to it and perhaps I will give it the full Booklook treatment at some point. That is for another day, but it got me thinking about the Bauhaus, modern architecture in all its  wonderful forms from France’s Art Deco, German Bauhaus and Brutalism through concrete forms. It also got me thinking about creative ways architecture can and is used to make life better for those who inhabit, live, work, love in these spaces. I had a conversation with Scott Specht of Specht Novak Architects and we discuss all of this. Specht’s work and that of his firm is exceptional examples of Modern Architecture at its absolute best. Per usual, we walk through Scott’s projects so check the show notes for a link to their project page and follow along. Everything from the sublime Weston Residence in Connecticut to the fun and funky Carpenter Hotel in Austin. From the Austin Cliffside Residence which is an absolute specimen in creative use of space to the experimental, Next American House. You are going to enjoy the ride. I guarantee it. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.  

Thank you, Scott. Amazing. I enjoyed our conversation and cannot wait to see the Next American Home in person. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design