Category Archives: Design Resource

Love and Location. Making the Move and Leveling Up | 537 | Emily Baker Studio

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. Do you like where you live? If you lived somewhere, anywhere else, how might that change you? How might that affect your work, your creativity?

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Emily Baker is a multi-disciplinary creative endeavors in photography, illustration and a wallpaper line. Emily moved with her family to Portugal. Hold on. Let this sink in for a moment. Moved with her family to Portugal. I focus on this because I think this is at the crux of life and creativity. It’s difficult to make a move across town, let alone to another state. But another country? I would argue that the fear of unknown issues, financial issues let alone the basic concerns around language and social issues would be paralyzing. But it’s also incredibly exciting. The constant rush of adrenaline from the most mundane of tasks can both wreak havoc on the central nervous system and release a flurry of new thoughts and ideas. I have always loved moving. But what is the direct correlation to creative breakthroughs moving to a new environment have on the work? On life? Your’e about to find out in this episode of Convo By Design featuring Emily Baker of Emily Baker Studio. We’ll be right back.

Thank you Emily. Loved this chat and appreciate the time. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well.

Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

Kyle Bunting | 536 | Our October 2024 Design Icon Registry Inductee

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This is the Convo By Design Icon Registry for October 2024 and it is an absolute joy for me to talk about this creative with reverence, respect and friendship. The October 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry inductee is the incomparable, Kyle Bunting.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Kyle and I have known each other for a while and he has appeared on the podcast four times I think. And in all different ways, And he almost always brought friends. Not that he needed them, but Kyle is what you can call a consummate professional and chronic collaborator. He can’t help himself, and why should he?

Collaboration between manufacturer, designer, architect, GC, client, trades, showroom are all critically important for the success of the project. Collaboration takes many forms and unfortunately, sometimes, no form at all. In all my experience, not just in the built and designed space, but in every aspect of business, collaboration is mission critical. Without collaboration, there is no communication, nor partnership, nor exceeding goals, can’t be done for one very simple reason; Design projects, residential or commercial builds are all done using multiple partners and if those partners aren’t working collaboratively, mistakes are made, miscommunications happen and it generally leads to additional issues. Kyle Bunting os one of the most highly-skilled collaborators I know. He also has created an exceptional brand and a wonderful product.

It is my privilege to induct Kyle into the Convo By Design Icon Registry, JMC Studio has crafted an original piece to commemorate this and it will be sent to Kyle shortly, check out Instagram if you want  to see it. As we do here, this is Kyle Bunting from a previous appearance on Convo By Design.

KB

Thank you, Kyle for taking the time and the willingness to share your story.  Thank you for your constant willingness to bring others into the big tent and for creating such an exceptional product. Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

Stay in Your Lane! | 535 | SheSpoke Founder Joan Barton and Design Tonik’s Amy Theresa

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design featuring an old friend and a new one in a very familiar space, talking about what makes strong bonds and strategic partnerships work. All while staying in your lane.

Joan Barton, founder of Dirty Girl Construction and SheSpoke, a platform that explores the stories and successes woman-owned, operated and worked side of the construction and design industry shared the mic once again with an outstanding creative thinker, Amy Theresa | DesignTonik @DesignTonik.Amy is the founder of Design Tonik, art + design, specializing in residential and commercial interior design, furniture procurement, design consulting and event planning. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

This is a multi-hyphenate company because Amy is a multi-hyphenate creative. Making her perfect fro a conversation with Joan and another exploration into SheSpoke and open and honest conversation by and for women in the built space.

Joan and Amy explore these ideas and talk about the discoveries and changes in the industry since approximately 2017. This is how contacts are made, bonds are formed, partnerships solidified and wok gets done. And done in a selective purposeful way.

This conversation was recorded live from Design Hardware in Los Angeles as part of our Day of Design programming series. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.

Thank you Joan and Amy. Loved this chat and appreciate the time. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well.

Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

Moments of Joy. Design Makes That Happen | 534 | Laura Tribbett, Outline Interiors

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. Today, we’re speaking with Laura Tribbett of Outline Interiors. I have long held the belief that design is a right, not a privilege. You might disagree, but let me explain why and after you hear my conversation with Laura, you might be on board. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Good design is a right, not a privilege. Good design affects all of us, makes communities stronger and it makes for a well lived life. I think many if not most people have no idea what good design is because most people are so heavily influenced by social media and because social media, actually media in general is so heavily influenced by likes, loves and emojis of those who don’t possess an educational background nor expertise on the subject. Anyone can look at an image on Instagram and love it enough to post a fire emoji. Nothing wrong with that but let’s not confuse that with an understanding of how that design might function or how it works with other spaces in the dwelling or how those who live there will use the space. It’s just a picture, they like it. Fine. But it’s really interesting how when enough people like something, it influence others to believe that it is exceptional. It might be, but there is nothing in the posting of an image to support that. Sometimes, this leads to fame for wildly popular designers regardless of whether or not their designs are good. And the measurement for that is how the client is affected by that work. There is a quote from Arthur Conan Doyle’s, The Hound of the Baskervilles in which Sherlock Holmes says, “I know what is good when I see it.”

In this particular case, Holmes is reacting to a portrait. Purely subjective. At the same time, what separates good design form bad? I would say that when you have a trained professional, doing what they have been trained to do on your behalf and influenced by your desires, the results have a good chance of hitting the mark. Why am I telling you this? Because smart, well trained and talented designers understand their roles and can see beyond first level obstacles.

Laura talks about infusing “moments of joy” into every project and that is one of the reasons I enjoy her work ad enjoyed our chat as much as I did. It’s also why I think you are going to love it. 

Thank you, Laura for taking the time to share your story. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. – CXD

He Said, She Said | 533 | Exceptional Hospitality Design feat. Brewco’s Michael Zislis and Designer Noelle Isbell

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a conversation about going home. You’ve heard the old adage, you can’t go home again. Derived from the Thomas Wolfe novel published in 1940, posthumously. It’s true, you can’t go home again because so much changes in your absence. I went home recently to Manhattan Beach. It’s true things change, but not everything and sometimes, change is good.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

I love Manhattan Beach. One of the things I missed most after we moved to Oklahoma was walking down the greenbelt with kids and  getting dinner in downtown MB followed by a trip to the Creamery for an ice cream sandwich the likes of which you just can’t find anywhere else. While there, I stopped into Brewco to speak with Michael Zislis, restaurateur, developer, hotelier and MB devotee. So much so, that through his restaurant and hotel development, has almost singlehandedly reshaped the city for the better over the past 30 years. We talked about the redevelopment of Brewco, an eatery on Manhattan Beach Boulevard and an iconic spot for those who’ve lived there or those who’ve come to visit. you’re going to hear that and then, you are going to hear from Noelle Isbell, Manhattan Beach designer who took on the Brewco project in amazing fashion, called her shot and delivered a spot that is representative of Manhattan Beach’s past, present and future. Turns out, you can go home again. Even if it’s not exactly the same. If you love design, you are going to love this story. If you are a designer, this is how you go and get that project you have always wanted. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.

Thank you, Noelle and Michael, thank you for creating something that makes me feel at home!. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. – CXD

Craftsmanship in A Digital Age | 532 | WestEdge Rewind from 2015

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I’m Josh Cooperman, this is Convo By Design and today, as we inch closer to WestEdge Design Fair, the 2024 edition, with everything going on behind the scenes as we prepare a slate of programming to surprise and delight you, I wanted to share a program from the past. As we finalize the roster  and get everything solidified, I wanted to share the “why” behind the programming. These panels are crafted to feature game changing, disrupting creatives and topics that hold up. What makes the WestEdge stage so special is the thought and effort that goes into the topics. They have all been carefully crafted, talent curated to speak to these ideas. Ideas that should hold up for years to come. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

The program you are going to hear today was called Craftsmanship in the Digital Age. Here is how it was described in the program: Is Craftsmanship a lost art in a world where we increasingly value expediency and accessibility over authenticity and beauty? Join Steven Gambrel, interior designer and co-founder of Dering Hall, as he leads a discussion with some of the most talented artisans and designers working today. How have our digitally-centered lives made us care even more about objects created with passion, skill and time-honored tradition? How do designers create a network of skilled craftspeople and educate their clients about the value craft? Explore the marketing of bespoke products and how digital tools have made success as an artisan more of a reality than ever before.

Featuring Bernard Brucha, MASHstudios; Paul Priven, Zia Priven; Wendy Schwartz, Cuffhome; and Delta Wright, Curated

Think about this for a moment, the program you are about to hear was covering craftsmanship and the value that authenticity holds in made goods. This conversation might as well have taken place in 2020 at the onset of the pandemic when authentic craftsmanship was a must have. Or in 2018, when every design event was discussing how to reach Millennials and their desire for fewer, but more authentic goods. Or, well… now, at a time when hand-made comes at a premium. Again, this was recorded in 2015, live at WestEdge. And I am proud to share this with you again. Right after this.

Thank you, Bernard, Paul, Wendy and Delta. Thank you, Megan and Troy from WestEdge. I enjoyed our conversations so much. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

People & Publicity, Insights from the Summer Day of Design | 531 | Brian Pinkett and Erik Perez

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with an episode about two sides of this industry that are rarely talked about. Two voices you rarely hear from, except here, of course. These two amazing individuals met me at Design Hardware for our Summer Day of Design event. Something important about the following episode right from the start, and this is not exclusive to the business of design. We’re talking about building teams and promoting your talent. These concepts are universally important and often neglected. But not here, not today.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

I have a tendency to repeat stories on occasion. No really, it’s true. And, if you have been listening to the show for any amount of time, you have probably picked up on this. I lean in on the things that have made an impact on me and how those things have affected my life and work. So, I tell you now, as I have told you before, I am not interested in doing a show about the business of design. Over the past 8 or 9 years, the business of design has gotten far more competitive. Partly due to the influx of new designers that enter the industry after every societal meltdown, be it a financial crisis like 08/09 or COVID. The same thing used to happen in my broadcast days. In that case, so many new people would be hired only to be fired at the end of each year and those people would go off and start their own advertising agency. In the design business, Many designers who don’t really make it as designers have found a niche business consulting designers on how to run their design businesses. I cannot tell you how many emails I receive from design business consultants who want to come on the show and there is a reason you don’t hear them on the show. I think if you want to learn something, it shouldn’t be from someone who couldn’t do it themselves but from someone who has exceeded in that particular area. Before I get angry emails, I’m not suggesting they are all bad or unhelpful, some are, I’m sure. But when I share the stories behind individuals with you, there is a reason for that.  Today, you are going to hear from Brian Pinkett, Principle Architect with Landry Design Group and Erik Perez, Founder and Principle of Hello PR. I have known both of these men for many years and I have seen them in action and for those reasons I am thrilled to share this episode with you. 

This episode was recorded live from Design Hardware in Los Angeles, but you know this because they are also long time sponsor partners of Convo By Design. I host a Day of Design for each season and this was from our July, summer session. These sessions are full days of recordings, panel conversations and product showcases designed specifically for busy designers to elevate their game through exposure, networking and education.

First up, you are going to hear from Brian Pinkett about training, teaching and mentoring talent and how to build a culture. Next, you will hear from Erik Perez about getting the most exposure for the work you do and how to leverage that into new business. And you’ll hear everything, right after this.

Thank you, Brian and Erik, love what you do and I’m thankful for your friendship and collaboration. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

Timothy Corrigan | 530 | Our September 2024 Design Icon Registry Inductee

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is the September 2024 installment of the Convo By Design Icon Registry featuring another absolutely incredible creative who appeared on the show not once, but I think this gentleman has been on the show 4 times over the past 11 years in every way possible. He has been on a panel, featured in an individual interview, been part of The Showroom series. He’s incredible. This months inductee is an amazing talent a gentleman and a friend. Timothy Corrigan.

I met Tim for the first time, I believe it was 2017. I went to his Los Angeles offices and we spoke about so many things and that is the episode I wanted to share with you today as we induct Tim into the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Somethings you should know about Tim. First, he is one heck of a person. He is one of those people you feel like you’ve known your whole life from the moment you meet him. Second, he already had a stellar career before design in the advertising industry. He led international operations for Saatchi & Saatchi’s Bates Worldwide prior to opening his eponymous design firm in 1998. For reference, Bates Worldwide, in 1998, had billings in excess of $7.7B and operations in 70+ countries with 156+ offices. 

One of the interesting things Tim and I talked about was the Bates Worldwide concept of the USP. Unique Selling Proposition. A concept you see offered everywhere but rarely understood. The idea is that wherever there is competition, one must find the differentiator, the thing that makes them stand out. Something that none else offers. That idea that competitively sets you apart. That others in the field don’t offer. There is far more to the concept but in a world where every designer is an “award winning” designer, Tim allows the work to override the accolades. The irony is not lost on me. To be talking about how it’s not about the accolades, while bestowing accolades, the point is that Ti has always understood his USP, he launched his firm knowing what he wanted, while perhaps not sure how he was going to do it, stayed true to himself and the work and accolades followed. Tim is strong willed, sure of his design ideas and doesn’t seem to have anything to prove. Another reason why I am so fond of Tim Corrigan and so happy to install him as this months inductee to the CXD Icon Registry.

Thank you, Tim for taking the time and the willingness to share your story. Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

WestEdge Rewind | 529 | Sustainable and Timeless Recorded Live in 2015

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a conversation from the past but no less relevant today and that is why I love producing the main stage at the WestEdge Design Fair. WestEdge, it’s coming up this November 14th through the 16th in Santa Monica at the Barker Hangar. This show is very special to me. I have been working with principles Megan and Troy, and co-founder Troy for years. This is a special show, my favorite show in California and that is saying something. It’s a labor of love and its with gratitude and appreciation to Megan and Troy that I get to do this every year.

 Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

I wanted to share some past programs with you and it seemed like a good time as we lean in on this years show. One of the things that I have always loved about WestEdge is how it represents a celebration of design and a yearning to help elevate the industry in the future. For me, that desire to elevate has taken the form of freedom to curate panels, interviews and concepts that speak to the ever-changing and evolving nature of the design and architecture space. Troy and Megan have always supported my ideas and encouraged me to pursue the unique, undiscussed conversations in the same way I have always tried to do for you on the show.

For the past 2-3 years now, you have been hearing a lot of conversations about sustainability in design. The importance of sustainable consciousness in the industry. You have also been hearing a great deal about the story behind materiality and product. A true desire for narration in the design and materials that comprise it. It’s important. And I thought I would share our conversation discussing these very issues, recorded live, at WestEdge… In 2018.

Before we get to this, some thoughts on sustainable design and panel programming over time. The panel program you are about to hear was recorded in 2018. While not many were talking about this subject, we were and you are going to notice how far we have come since 2018 with regard to sustainable design practices. In large part due to conversations like this one. This is one of the reasons why the SoCal design community and beyond love this event so much. You are going to hear it here, first. The ideas and concepts that are shaping our industry now and well into the future. This year, we have an extraordinary slate of talks featuring amazing talent scheduled for the show. Find out more at WestEdge Design Fair dot com.

But first, It’s such a joy to look back at these and share them again.  Sustainable and Timeless Design featuring; Whitney Tinsley, Bret Englander of Cerno Group and Catherine Richardson of Libeco Linen. This program was moderated by Erika Heet of Interiors Magazine.

We’ll get to it, right after this.

TS

WE1

TT/ PS

WE2

DH

Thank you, Erika, Catherine, Bret, Whitney. Thank you, Megan and Troy from WestEdge. I enjoyed our conversations so much. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

The Art of Turning Something into Something Else | 528 | Simon Hamui

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a conversation about potential. Potential is defined as having the capacity to become something in the future. Think about that. I’ll give you six seconds.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Potential, the most optimistic word in the human language next to the word optimism. Potential is only an idea until its activated. Simon Hamui is a Mexico City based design studio founded by Hamui and works in natural materials like wood, stone, upholstery and metal for truly unique spaces. Potential in this instance refers to both the artisan and his team in addition to the materials in which they work. Turning a piece of raw wood into a piece of artisan cabinetry on a yacht, earthen pulled stone into a stunning dining room floor. One of a kind works for one of a kind spaces by a one of a kind artisan and studio. I also asked Simon about his musical tastes, those responses. The top 10 he’s loving right now; Gustav Mahler, Paul Simon, Claude Debussey, Melody Gardot, Johann Sebastian Bach, Genesis (early years), Milton Nacimiento, Sergei Profofiev, Pat Metheny and Juan Manuel Serrat. Love these! This is what we’re discussing today with Simon Hamui. We’ll be right back.