Welcome to the Convo By Design Icon Registry episode for June, 2025, and today’s episode is something special. I’m joined by four extraordinary architects—Gary Brewer, Randy Carell, Grant Marani, and Roger Schiefter—partners at Robert A.M. Stern Architects, a firm globally recognized for its enduring elegance and rigor in design. Collectively, they represent decades of leadership and legacy, and I’ve dubbed them, affectionately, the Fab Four of architecture.
We’re exploring their latest book, Houses, a breathtaking volume showcasing RAMSA’s residential work from across the globe. This isn’t just about aesthetics—it’s about architecture that works, endures, and adapts. As someone who values tactile design and the subtle elegance of spaces that feel lived in, I was especially drawn to the honesty and detail these architects bring to their craft.
We’ll talk about how RAMSA evolved from a small, hands-on firm into a global powerhouse using a unique studio structure, how the architects grew up within a culture of high expectations, and how they now design homes as full ecosystems—self-contained, resilient, and deeply personal. And, how the pandemic changed the way we think about domestic space, and why, despite digital tools, the printed page still holds unmatched power in architectural storytelling.
So, whether you’re an architect, designer, student, or someone who just loves great design, this conversation is full of insight, humor, and heart. And you will hear it all form this months inductees, right after this from our Convo By Design Icon Registry presenting partner, pacific Sales Kitchen & Home.
That was Gary Brewer, Randy Carell, Grant Marani, and Roger Schiefter—four voices with a shared vision, yet distinct design perspectives, brought together in Houses, a book that feels more personal, more immersive, and more intimate than past RAMSA monographs.
What struck me most is their deep respect—for clients, for context, and for the act of living itself. Whether it’s a house in East Hampton rebuilt with reverence for sycamore trees, a modern reinterpretation of a black-and-white colonial home in Singapore, or Roger’s own renovation of a Southern California midcentury gem, these projects aren’t just beautiful—they’re functional, thoughtful, and designed for longevity.
In a world increasingly obsessed with speed and spectacle, these homes offer something slower and deeper. As one client said after moving into her RAMSA-designed house: “All I had to buy was a tablecloth.” That’s not just a compliment—it’s a blueprint for what design should be: complete, coherent, and truly lived-in.
Print may be fighting for its place in a digital age, but books like Houses remind us why it still matters. It’s not about nostalgia—it’s about permanence. About slowing down to experience a space the way the architects intended.
Thanks for listening to Convo By Design. Thank you to my partner sponsors, Pacific Sales, TimberTech and Design Hardware. And thank you for taking the time to listen. I couldn’t do this without you, wouldn’t want to. I hope this show help you stay motivated, inspired and focused so you can rise above the chaos. -CXD
This is Convo By Design—where we explore the ideas, people, and projects shaping the future of design. But you know that, I imagine this is why you listen each week… To hear stories behind the design. One of the things I have been thinking about lately is how ideas, feelings and purpose can change over time. When I started CXD in January of 2013, I thought I was speaking to design and architecture clients. Homeowners who wanted to learn about the stories behind design. From the response I received, almost immediately, I realized it was the trade I was speaking to. Well, that’s who was listening. And it was that way for years. It was probably around 2015 or 2016 that homeowners were listening and speaking to their designers about imbuing their story into the work. Personalizing it which prior to that was still seen as a detriment to resale. That idea is pretty much gone now, and that’s a good thing.
In this episode, I’m speaking with Lindsie Davis, the creative force behind Bluberry Jones, a design firm based in Texas. Lindsie’s story is rooted in authenticity—an interior designer who once felt uncomfortable in the spotlight, but found herself pulled into a public-facing role by the very nature of her work. Her creative journey weaves through fashion, art education, and eventually, full-scope interior design, fueled by instinct, passion, and an unwavering desire to build spaces with soul.
From her first unexpected design job at a paint store to launching a firm amid the uncertainty of 2020, Lindsie has leaned into change—and thrived in it. We talk about her evolution from the suburbs of Dallas to the creative haven of Wimberley, the cultural rise of Texas design, and the very real challenges and rewards of running a design business in a rapidly growing, ever-shifting market like Austin.
This conversation also dives deep into kitchens—yes, white kitchens, colorful kitchens, and how even the smallest design decisions can echo with intention and meaning. Lindsie’s perspective is one of quiet confidence, shaped by creativity, hard-earned business acumen, and a genuine love for making homes better, one thoughtful layer at a time.
That was Lindsie Davis of Bluberry Jones. A designer with a sharp eye, a creative spirit, and a grounded understanding of how to make spaces work beautifully and meaningfully for the people who live in them.
Her story is a reminder that design is rarely a straight line—it’s a winding road of experiments, pivots, passion, and perseverance. Whether she’s reimagining a kitchen, collaborating with architects on multi-year projects, or navigating the changing landscape of Texas design, Lindsie brings intentionality and warmth to every corner she touches.
Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, share it with a friend who loves design, subscribe to Convo By Design wherever you get your podcasts. And continue the conversation on Instagram @convo x design with an “x”. Keep those emails coming with guest suggestions, show ideas and locations where you’d like to see the show.
Thank you to my partner sponsors, TimberTech, The Azek Company, Pacific Sales, Best Buy and Design Hardware. These companies support the shelter industry so give them an opportunity on your next project. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, stay focused and rise about the chaos. -CXD
Things are changing. Can you feel it? I can. The mood in the design, architecture, built space is changing in response to external factors. Those external factors are being felt in numerous ways. I’ll give you an example and we don’t about this much, not nearly enough. Hardening of the enclosure in architecture is leading to new ways architects are approaching the exterior envelope of projects to address the threats brought on by climate change. Remember ‘global warming’? That was a misnomer, it’s climate change. Design has and in large part is still focused on aesthetic, but that too is changing. Are you changing with it?
Change is hard. All change is hard. But without change, there is no evolution. Without evolving, we do the same things over and over regardless of the outcome. I have changed, Convo By Design has changed. Seemingly everyone has a podcast now, and it feels like every editorial headline is ‘something’ by design. 12 years ago, neither was that way. I see how my own editorial approach has changed, these conversations we share each week have changed and the industry is changing as well. Not by choice, but because, as the quote from Moneyball goes, “Adapt or die”. Today, you are going to listen in on my conversation with Steph Schlegelmilch, founder and chief creative director of Studio Seva. This Westport, Connecticut based creative blends a holistic approach with technical application. Steph shares her thoughts on a number of ideas affecting the business of design today, and these ideas are not going away any time soon. They include;
An appreciation of and learning form failure
Experience and collaboration
Exploration of style, techniques and materials
Styling and photography
Trend translation , modification and the edit process
Home styling challenges
Lighting design
Partnerships
All of these ideas should be taught in a formal design education. Sadly, they are not. But you can find them explored here. So, enjoy this episode with Studio Seva’s Steph Schlegelmilch.
Thank you, Steph. Enjoyed this. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors, TimberTech, Pacific Sales, and Design Hardware. Amazing companies and great friends to the trade so please give them an opportunity for your next project. Thank you for listening, subscribing to the show and sharing with your colleagues. If not already subscribing, please consider that so you receive every new episode automatically to your podcast feed.
Until next week, thank you for sharing this time together, until the next episode, be well, stay focused and now that it has arrived in earnest, try to rise above the chaos. – CXD
Outdoor living, the new frontier for everything from maximizing enjoyment of external spaces, outdoor entertainment and outdoor kitchens. New modalities generating a renewed interest in cultivated design of said spaces by some of the most talented creatives working today. From entertainment spaces to full blown ultra-luxe outdoor kitchens and everything in between with opportunities available for just about any (realistic) budget. Outdoor design is changing rapidly due to a number of factors. Those factors include modified use due to changing circumstances, client desire, increased cost of goods all in an outdoor spaces that are not as predictable as they used to be. So, we are going to chop it up a little bit and provide some practical solutions for designers, architects, landscape architects and design-build firms looking to up their outdoor entertainment game.
This conversation features; Jessica Petrino Ball, Director of Trade and Education | AJ Madison, Robert Bell, Landscape Architect | Bell Design
The expectations many designers have don’t necessarily result once their careers begin. Often times, designers find their way into the business by starting in another field. And that makes for an interesting journey. I remember being in college and thinking about all of the things I wanted to do once I started my career. If you would have asked me during my time at Washington State University what I was going to be doing in 2025, this would not have been anywhere in the conversation. But I really cannot imagine myself doing anything else. And I’ve been doing this since 2013. Prior to that, I had a first career in radio and broadcast media. Funny how life works, isn’t it.
I have a unique process of writing and prepping for the conversations you hear on the show. I have the types of conversations with creatives that I want to have with them. Meaning, I find your in discovering what makes designers, artists, makers, architects and creatives work. What drives them to do what they do and what inspires them to reach the high levels they have achieved. Many of the conversations you hear on the show start with, “so, what are we talking about today” or you simply hear my response to that question in a cold open. I don’t edit that out, nor do I edit the chats we have because I want you to hear the stream of consciousness. What you don’t know is the amount of prep I do for each conversation. As a matter of fact, the guests you hear don’t see that either. I decided to model this show on the conversations that I have at trade events. The individual interactions that take place that make the trade events so truly special. You cannot recreate the vibe, I know that. But, I want you to feel like you are in Vegas, LA or Paris at KBIS, WestEdge or Maison y Objet, with a cocktail in your hand and listening in on a conversation between two peers and know that what you are about to hear is going to enrich you in some special way. Perhaps its hearing how someone else built their practice. Maybe it’s what discovery led them to design the way they do or even how their previous career led them to where they are today. To inspire you to perhaps pivot, reorganize your firm or employ a new technique. Because that’s fun. It’s inspiring. It’s motivating. And who couldn’t use a little more of that. Well, I hope you can because that’s what your getting today as you listen in on my chat with New Jersey designer, Allison Handler of Allison Handler Design.
Thank you Allison, loved our chat and appreciate the time.
Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Pacific Sales, Monogram and Design Hardware. Amazing companies and great friends to the trade so please give them an opportunity for your next project. And, thank you for listening, subscribing the show and sharing with your colleagues. If not already subscribing, please consider that so you receive every new episode automatically to your podcast feed. Until next week, thank you for sharing this time together, until the next episode, be well, stay focused and now that it has arrived in earnest, try to rise above the chaos. – CXD
Over the years, I have spoken with many clients who really don’t understand the process behind design. I think there are many beginner and mid-level designers that don’t fully understand process, means and methods. If a client wants their projects completed quickly, they can always find a designer who will do it for them. It’s their replacement who has to pick up the pieces. I can hear many of you nodding in agreement as I say this. It’s the journey, like that of a runner. You don’t decide to run a marathon, buy a pair of shoes and run it. There is a process. A very long and challenging process. The same is true when trying to become the best at what you do in any endeavor. Just like design.
Today, you are going to hear from Holly Hollenbeck. Holly and I discussed the parallels between long-distance running and project management. Holly, an experienced ultra-distance runner, shared her lessons learned from participating in challenging races, emphasizing the importance of strategic planning, determination, and experience. She also highlighted how these experiences have influenced her approach to project strategy and risk management.
Holly shares some of the challenges she faced in her design and client management roles due to the Covid-19 pandemic and economic fluctuations. She emphasized the importance of clear communication with clients, setting expectations upfront, and being flexible to pivot when necessary. We also discussed the differences in real estate design and mentality between the United States, Europe, and Asia, with a focus on the concept of the ancestral home and the shift towards renovating existing homes rather than moving due to high housing costs. There is an overwhelming need to adapt to constantly changing market conditions and client needs.
Holly shares her experience of having her kitchen design featured on the cover of California Home and Design in 2007, which she attributed to serendipity and connections with friends. Holly and I discussed the pitfalls of designing homes based on current trends, emphasizing the importance of creating cohesive, functional spaces rather than focusing on individual, trendy elements. They highlighted the risk of a design becoming outdated and the need to balance trendy elements with timeless pieces. Holly shared her approach to navigating clients’ desires for trendy features by ensuring these elements are used in unique and personalized ways. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.
Thank you Holly, loved our chat. Keep on truckin.
Thank you to my incredible partner/ sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech for your support for the show and the industry as a whole. We are a stronger because of industry partners like you. And of course, thank you for listening to the podcast, subscribing to the show and sharing it with friends and colleagues. Please keep the show and guest suggestions coming, I do appreciate them and do my best to respond to every one.Convo By Design @ Outlook dot com and on Instagram, convoXDesign, with an “X”.Thanks again for listening. Happy New Year, make this the year you’ve been hoping it would be. Until the next episode, Stay focused and above the chaos.
The Convo By Design Icon Registry inductees this month are Jordan Slocum and Barry Bordelon AKA the Brownstone Boys. They appeared on the show around 2020. I feel strongly about historical preservation and I cannot think of anyone who does this as authentically as Jordon and Barry. Neither were born in Brooklyn, but they found themselves there with a passion for design and a love of brownstones. Their authenticity with regard to the work is inescapable and their sole focus on the mission of restoring old brownstones is what I think makes them so unique. This is not a flavor-of-the-month activity to become socially relevant. They started their passion project first, turned it into a business and the fame followed, as did more projects, book deals and all the other fun stuff designerswant as part of their professional portfolio.
The other aspect to their work that I find so wonderful is their approach to each project. Not recreating it in the original form of the architect but reimagining it and keeping the essence of the work, historical reference but also reimagining it to fit seamlessly into the neighborhood with all the modern amenities one would hope for without shoe-horning it it. It flows effortlessly into each completed project. Allowing those who love brownstones to enjoy this as well as allowing the architectural purist to appreciate the workmanship and creative approach to a revitalized building.
Please enjoy an encore airing of that first conversation with Barry and Jordan, our December 2024 inductees to the Convo By Design Icon Registry, the Brownstone Boys.
Thank you Barry and Jordan for appearing on the show, creating such beautiful reimagined spaces and respecting the original work as you do. Thank you to my wonderful partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, Design Hardware, TimberTech and Monogram for your continued support and thank you for taking the time to listen to the show and sharing it with your friends, family and colleagues. Until next time, be well and take today first.
I just thought since this is the Friday after Thanksgiving, almost everyone is home, eating, drinking and enjoying time with family, I would give you an opportunity to slip away for an hour or so for some alone time. You’re welcome. This is another installment of Drinking About Design. This episode features Butler Armsden leadership team or Glenda Flaim and Federico Engel. We are talking about some really obscure topics, drinking while we do it and I hope you enjoy it.
Fernando Engel is sharing stories about his homeland, Argentina, as well as the Capanopolis, and Francisco Salamone and Glenda will be sharing her thoughts on Venetian Chimneys. Never heard of Venetian chimneys? Well it’s a story on invention. As the proverb goes, “Necessity is the mother of invention.” And that perfectly describes Venetian chimneys. Think about fire suppression in overcrowded cities, adding ornate design. Cool right, now date them back to the 13th century. Ideas in technological spark arresting and fire suppression. We’re going to get right to this. Special thanks to Glenda and Federico from Butler Armsden for joining me and for my incredible partner sponsors; Pacific Sales, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware for making it possible and allowing me to share these stories with you. With that, I give you another installation of Drinking About Design.
That was so much fun. Thank you Federico and Glenda, so appreciate the storytelling and the time. Thank you to my partner sponsors ThermaSol, TimberTech, Pacific Sale, Monogram and Design Hardware for your continued support and thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to join me for these conversations. This was a fun one, right? There are more episodes of Drinking About Design in 2025 so subscribe to the podcast and get every episode, brand new, right to your feed. Until next week. Happy Thanksgiving, Be well, and take today first. -CXD
This podcast, started in 2013, now 11 years running. I wanted to break from the usual conversations to share some thoughts on gratitude and optimism. To share some updates and thank those who have participated in this exceptional run.
The production of this episode coincides with Thanksgiving, intentionally. This is the time of year when most design professionals and clients alike tend to shut things down for the year. Kids come home from school for the Winter break, family comes to visit, we buy gifts for loved ones, attend holiday parties and I like to think that I am not alone in looking at the past year reflectively while looking to the new year with renewed optimism. 2024 was a fantastic year with regard to the show. Convo By Design has hit a higher gear this year. Going back to by background in motorsports, that means we have opened up new opportunities and are running faster and harder than ever before. The post-pandemic world is different that it was prior. Some issues have emerged this year that I find disturbing. Natural disasters, climate change, weather patterns have all accelerated. It isn’t really about if people believe or remain climate change deniers. Ignore these changes at your peril. I experienced something in 2023 that forever changed the way I feel about climate changes. Father’s Day, 2023, there was a straight line wind event in Tulsa. 100 mile per hour winds for 30-minutes. You can imagine the destruction. My family was fine, but others were not as fortunate. As I write this, a series of hurricanes passed through the southeast and the devastation was tremendous. We are also saw a dock workers strike, a fierce election season which will once again separate families and end friendships. And as I say this, I cannot help but feel optimistic for the year to come. Why? I’ll tell you, rights after this.
Why the optimism? First, I have been incredibly fortunate. I have my family, my health, you… yes you, I am so thankful that you listen, even happier when you send an email to let me know you like the show, disagree with something I said or have a guest suggestion. I also have a roster of incredible partner sponsors. Patrick, Nick, Mitch, Rachael and Jari from ThermaSol. Dan, Jay, Sam from TimberTech. Shaun and Verzine from Pacific Sales as well as the amazing team at Monogram. Michele, Avi, Stassi and Jaime from Design Hardware. Then there are the incredible creatives who share their stories and their work with us, you and me every week on the show.
2024 has brought some new endeavors, exciting changes and portends great things to come. But tread cautiously. I’ll get to that in a moment. First, the new developments. I learned early on in my radio career that the only thing you can really count on is change. The Telecom Act of 1996 changed so much, for me…and you. Most of the people I speak with these days don’t listen to the radio, and that is unfortunate for radio, but not for all of the incredible audio programming that we have available. If there was no Telecommunications Act of 1996, radio stations would probably still be in the hands of individual owners instead of the 10 groups that almost every American radio station. When I was a teenager, growing up in the Valley. I listened to KLOS, KMET, KNAC and KROQ. Play a song for me and I can tell you about how old I was and what I was doing when it was popular. KMET and KLOS created a love for Guns & Roses, Motley Crue, Giant, Scorpions and Van Halen, KNAC sharpened the rock edge with Metallica, Ozzy, Anthrax and Megadeth. Then KROQ, my beloved KROQ. The Smiths, The Cure, Depeche Mode, Roxy Music, The Nails who by the way introduced me to the name , Kamala, “who couldn’t sing but kept the beat and kept it strong.” 88 Lines About 44 Women, check it out. The point is, independent radio groups kept things fresh and interesting. They introduced me to new artists to fall in love with. Radio today is a shadow of its former self. The artists you hear today aren’t broken by radio but through individuals on social media. I compare this to the design industry because there is a very similar pattern being established. There was a time for those of us who loved design and architecture, a time when if you wanted to see what designers were making a splash, you turned to the trade publications. The magazines who provided beautiful glossy images, contributors who were actually journalists, writers who could craft a story and explain the language of architecture and design. Those days too have sailed by because most of us don’t subscribe to magazines anymore. That makes me sad because I still love magazines. They just don’t love me back. And I know there are some of you listening who still subscribe to and read magazines, but you are in the minority and at some point, this too will cease. Case in point. If you like music, and who doesn’t, when was the last time you bought an album? Not a song, an entire record? Fine, CD, digital download or actual vinyl, the whole record? Swifties, no need to email me, you’re different, I get it. This comparison makes for an interesting comparison between musicians and designers & architects. both produce new work that is reflective of broader societal issues. If radio was still the boss, you would not get exposure to new artists except those the industry wanted you to hear. Same goes for designers. To be frank with you, if radio were still the boss, podcasts would all be controlled by the existing radio groups. And, if the shelter trade publications were still as popular as they once were, Convo By Design would probably never have happened. So, in a strange way, I’m grateful for that too.
I mention this because as you are listening to this episode of the show, we recently completed the 2024 installment of the WestEdge Design Fair, a show I have been associated with since 2015. I have produced the programming o the main stage since 2017 and this year brought new voices along with well recognized creatives in design and architecture. Along with the new and established voices, we are talking about relevant issues that are affecting everyone in the shelter space, residential, commercial, design, architecture, manufacturing specifying, everyone and all of it. Concepts like; What’s Next which addresses what many can expect in 2025 with respect to politics, workforce, shipping, receiving, tariffs and other cost issues. Offline Vs. Reconnected, a conversation about the value, healthand emotional benefits of cutting cords in the design itself, why and how for best effect. Authenticity Vs. Dupes, cancel culture taught us that there are ramifications for bad actions and bad actors yet theft, specifically idea theft, creative theft goes unpunished, or has thus-far. But that’s changing, those with sticky fingers beware. Vengance is coming. Have heard about the kerfuffle between the Donals Judd Foundationand Kim Kardashian and Clements Design. This is a huge deal concerning trade dress, intellectual property and trademark infringement. A big deal and not the only issue out there. How about Gifford V. Sheil. Another high profile copyright and trade dress infringement as it relates to content and social media. This one is really interesting. It revolves around …
We are covering a number of new ideas that warrant exploration. If you were not able to join us this year, fear not, every panel has been recorded as it has since 2018 and you will be able to listen in beginning in January with a limited series called WestEdge Wednesday where you will hear one of the 2024 conversations. I want to share something else pretty special with you. Something that will make your heart sing if you love extraordinary design talent, right after this.
2024 brought the inaugural year of the Convo By Design Icon Registry, a hall of fame showcasing some of the most extraordinary guests since the show started in 2013. The icons of 2024 include; Bunny Williams, Cara Woodhouse, Jean Brownhill, Alex Papachristidis, Susan Ferrier, Dakota Jackson, Brigett Romanek, Tim Corrigan, Kyle Bunting, Brian Pinkett, Jamie Bush, and I’m spilling the tea a bit, but December’s addition will be the Brownstone Boys. You will hear that episode in a few weeks. Third Thursday of every month will be the induction of a new icon. This is a hall of fame, not a massive click-bait list of dozens of creatives, these individuals have been selected for a few reasons that include their appearance on the show, their body of work, a willingness to give back to the industry and the manner in which they created their design business. All of these individuals have left an indelible mark on the world, leaving it better than they found it. Make sure you are listening to the 2025 class inductions, there are some very special people. Each icon, in addition to their induction episode, will be receiving a custom made and hand turned piece from JMC Studio. You can see what those look like on Instagram @convoXdesign, with an “x”. Final thoughts, right after this.
2025 is going to be an exceptional year, I can feel it. Been vibing with the universe and I can feel everything beginning to align. It feels different because, as I stated at the beginning of this episode, there are external forces at work that have made and continue to make life more complicated that it once was. I think that designers are futurists who make life better through their architecture and design. That talent is what will be addressing the climate change issues, costs of goods, specification and lifestyle. We adapt, we evolve, we change in response to the external forces that affect the manner in which we live, love and exist. I’m excited about the year to come and that joy comes form an appreciation for what is and acceptance of what was. That’s gratitude. I’m grateful and thankful for everyone who has come on the show this year, I’m thankful for my partner sponsors, TimberTech, ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales and Monogram. Please keep those guest suggestions and show ideas coming, convo by design at Outlook dot com and on instagram, @convoXDesign with an “X”.
Until next week, be well, take today first and Happy Thanksgiving. – Convo By Design
I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. Do you like where you live? If you lived somewhere, anywhere else, how might that change you? How might that affect your work, your creativity?
Emily Baker is a multi-disciplinary creative endeavors in photography, illustration and a wallpaper line. Emily moved with her family to Portugal. Hold on. Let this sink in for a moment. Moved with her family to Portugal. I focus on this because I think this is at the crux of life and creativity. It’s difficult to make a move across town, let alone to another state. But another country? I would argue that the fear of unknown issues, financial issues let alone the basic concerns around language and social issues would be paralyzing. But it’s also incredibly exciting. The constant rush of adrenaline from the most mundane of tasks can both wreak havoc on the central nervous system and release a flurry of new thoughts and ideas. I have always loved moving. But what is the direct correlation to creative breakthroughs moving to a new environment have on the work? On life? Your’e about to find out in this episode of Convo By Design featuring Emily Baker of Emily Baker Studio. We’ll be right back.
Thank you Emily. Loved this chat and appreciate the time. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well.
Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD
