Category Archives: Circularity

The Brownstone Boys | 547 | Our December 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry Inductees

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The Convo By Design Icon Registry inductees this month are Jordan Slocum and Barry Bordelon AKA the Brownstone Boys. They appeared on the show around 2020. I feel strongly about historical preservation and I cannot think of anyone who does this as authentically as Jordon and Barry. Neither were born in Brooklyn, but they found themselves there with a passion for design and a love of brownstones. Their authenticity with regard to the work is inescapable and their sole focus on the mission of restoring old brownstones is what I think makes them so unique. This is not a flavor-of-the-month activity to become socially relevant. They started their passion project first, turned it into a business and the fame followed, as did more projects, book deals and all the other fun stuff designers  want as part of their professional portfolio. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

The other aspect to their work that I find so wonderful is their approach to each project. Not recreating it in the original form of the architect but reimagining it and keeping the essence of the work, historical reference but also reimagining it to fit seamlessly into the neighborhood with all the modern amenities one would hope for without shoe-horning it it. It flows effortlessly into each completed project. Allowing those who love brownstones to enjoy this as well as allowing the architectural purist to appreciate the workmanship and creative approach to a revitalized building.

Please enjoy an encore airing of that first conversation with Barry and Jordan, our December 2024 inductees to the Convo By Design Icon Registry, the Brownstone Boys.

Thank you Barry and Jordan for appearing on the show, creating such beautiful reimagined spaces and respecting the original work as you do. Thank you to my wonderful partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, Design Hardware, TimberTech and Monogram for your continued support and thank you for taking the time to listen to the show and sharing it with your friends, family and colleagues. Until next time, be well and take today first.

Planning for the Changes Coming in 2025 | 546 | How the Industry is Prepping for the New Reality

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Design Hardware Fall 2024 Open House 

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with some of the highlights from the Fall open house at Design Hardware. Incredible design talent, interesting conversations and insights into how the business of design is changing.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

The design industry today is more robust and complex than ever before. And that is only going to continue to change over time. Accelerating with every new change in technology and business climate. Not to mention actual climate changes. Every quarter, I check in with design talent at the Design Hardware showroom in Los Angeles and we chop up issue like these and others. These are some of the highlights from our Fall 2024 event that took place in November. You are going to hear all about that, right after this.

Adam Hunter

Cecilia Rose

Candace Quinn

Bianca Bush

Ben Jones 

What a day. Thank you Cecile, Candace, Bianca, Adam and Ben. These were just a few of the conversations we had and you can find more in depth with these individuals as well as additional creatives by listening to Doctoring Up Design, the official podcast of Design Hardware. Check the show notes for links to that and all the designers you’ve heard here today.

Thank you to my partner sponsors including ThermaSol, TimberTech, Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home, Design Hardware and Monogram for your continued support to the design community. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the show and share it with with family, friends and colleagues. Your time is the most valuable asset and I appreciate the time we spend here together on the show. Please keep those show and guest suggestions coming. convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXDesign with and “X”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

The Modern Kitchen LIVE | 545 | The Pros Talk Tech and Design Application

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The smell of Fall is in the air and people across the U.S. are preparing for a holiday season that will include gatherings. Family and friends get together, give thanks and celebrate one another. Much of that celebratory time takes place in the kitchen, the heart of the home where conversation and meal preparation are shared and enjoyed. Are you ready?

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

It’s not only during the holidays, but everyday activities take place in the kitchen and a group of exceptionally talented designers gathered to share their thoughts on how the technological advancements in home appliances have changed the way people live and the way these advancements are bettering the lives of those who employ them. We started with a very simple idea to discuss:

Technology, Style and Todays Most Well Designed Kitchens: Everything is Changing, How Some of the Most Talented Creatives Are Changing the Rules.

The most talented designers understand that times are changing. They have seen it happen, in real time prior to the start of the pandemic. Societal changes dating back to the financial crisis of 08/09 led to a renewed look at the “value” of home and the Covid pandemic created a renewed look at the “purpose”. No space has changed more than the kitchen, previously dubbed, “the heart of the home” has morphed into the heart, brain and central nervous system. All things experiential touch the kitchen. Technology has led to some of the greatest advancements in expected areas like refrigeration, cooking and cleaning, but that is only the beginning. How have technological advancements led to increased quality of life? What followed is only the beginning in a wonderful journey of exploration.

Thank you to Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home and Monogram for making this gathering possible. Great partners like Pacific Sales and Monogram appreciate their design clients and strive to provide opportunities to gather, learn and share experiences with our likeminded creates. They make the built environment community stronger and that in turn increases the quality of life for those fortunate enough to engage remarkable designers like these. The following conversation covered a lot of territory and real world scenarios about this very subject. Here are just a few of the concepts we discussed:

  • Recovered time no longer spent on meal prep
  • Convenience through remote activation
  • Automated cooking for meal perfection
  • Reduced upkeep
  • App management
  • Decorative advancements
  • Efficiency
  • Increased air and water quality
  • Minimized need for tools 
  • Simplified education for full and maximized use
  • Minimized food waste
  • In appliance cameras for off-site reference
  • Fully customizable space for design approval 

And you are going to hear from some amazing creatives starting with Lynnelle Bryant of Masbuild Design Solutions, right after this.

Lynnelle Bryant| Masbuild Design Solutions 

Goli Karimi | HomeFrontBuild

Gwen Sukeena | Sukeena Homes

Jeanne Chung | Cozy Stylish Chic

Laura Muller | Four Point Design Build

Rachel Scheff | Rachel Scheff Design Studio

What an incredible day. Thank you Lynnelle, Goli, Gwen, Jeanne, Laura, and Rachel. Thank you Shaun Ayala, Verzine Hovasapyan, and Ricardo Garcia with pacific Sales Kitchen & Home for your participation and support for the design community. Thank you to all my partner sponsors including Pacific Sales, Monogram, ThermaSol, TimberTech and Design Hardware. These are amazing companies and they are here to make your projects the best they can possibly be. Check the show notes for links to each as well as videos from our design  conversations featuring each of these wonderful designers. Thank you for taking the time to listen and share Convo By Design with your friends, family, colleagues and clients. I couldn’t do this show without you, wouldn’t want to. Until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

#InteriorDesign #Architecture #KitchenDesign #PacificSales #Monogram

Convo By Design Icon Registry Induction | 544 | Meet the Induction Class of 2024

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This episode is a special one dedicated to the 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry inductees. This inaugural class of inductees features a diverse group of extraordinary creatives. If you have been listening to the special episodes that air the third Thursday of each month, you’ve heard just what makes these people so extraordinary at what they do. This was the first year of the program and it is scheduled to run well into the future. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

This idea for a Hall of Fame was conceived quite some time ago, but I struggled with a touch of imposter syndrome. I thought, who am I to bestow an honor like this on these people. The best in the business today and then a few things happened. The first was the 10-year anniversary party which was held in May of 2023. I was surrounded by so many friends, previous guests of the show, industry partners, all who listen to the show on a weekly basis and I heard stories about how these conversations have helped them in their careers, especially through the pandemic and now, when it feels like life has become a series of crisis management events, one after another. To showcase those who have figured it out and sharing how they did it, then celebrating their accomplishments. It just felt like a good time to start this project. This is not a list by which I expect anything in return. There is no ask for promotion or social media shares. This is just my way of celebrating these folks. But, there are criteria. These individuals have all been on the show, they are extraordinary at what they do by any and all standards and finally, the make our industry better, better than they found it. That is a big one, you will find that each of these amazing creatives have produced exceptional work, many do, but not all give back. Everyone here has, in exceptional ways. And you’re going to hear a bit from each. By the way, the entire episodes are available and you can check the links in the show notes to listen to each on. We’re going to get to that, right after this.

2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry Inductees:

January – Bunny Williams.

February – Cara Woodhouse.

March – Jean Brownhill.

April – Alex Papachristidis.

May – Susan Ferrier.

June – Dakota Jackson.

July – Brigette Romanek.

August – Jaime Bush

September – Timothy Corrigan.

October – Kyle Bunting.

November – Brian Pinkett.

December – Brownstone Boys.

What a great look back and these incredible people. I’m grateful and thankful that they all took the time to share their gifts, here, with us. Each inductee will be receiving, in addition to my eternal gratitude, a hand turned piece to commemorate their induction. Crafted by yours truly through JMC Studio. They have all been fabricated from local materials here in Tulsa, including wood from an old white oak that fell during the derecho in 2023. Thank you again to each for your contributions to our industry and the clients you serve. Thank you to my partner sponsors for your continued support, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, Monogram, TimberTech and Design Hardware. Amazing companies who are dedicated to the success of the specifiers who craft and construct some of the worlds greatest structures. And thank you for listening to the show, downloading episodes and sharing them with your colleagues, friends and clients. Please keep those emails coming with show and guest suggestions. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

Brian Pinkett | 540 | Our November 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry Inductee

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is the Convo By Design Icon Registry November induction whose recipient has been on the show individually, part of a panel, part of a smaller group, virtually and in person. He has done all of this while simultaneously rising to principle of one of the most incredible architecture firms of the modern era. Brian, how’s that for a lead in?

The Brian I am referring to is the most recent inductee into the Icon Registry, it’s Brian Pinkett, principal of Landry Design Group. When I first started this program back in January of this year, I wanted to recognize some of the most extraordinary individuals who have honored me, and us with their presence on the show. Those who have lent their exceptional talents to their chosen profession and made this world better than they found it. Brian Pinkett is one of those people through his exceptional design skills, of course. But, that is no where near where the story lies. We he just a great architect, that would be one thing. Every architect I speak with on the show is the best at what they do. Every designer who appears on the podcast is the best at what they do. The difference lies between the lines. You might have hear my most recent conversation with Pinkett a few months back. He and I met at Design Hardware in Los Angeles for a Day of Design and he shared his philosophy and practical application of getting the absolute best out of the architects in his charge. We discussed how he approaches team work, mentorship and  challenging those who want to be exceptional at what they do.  That is Brian’s superpower and he has made a number of young architects exceptional at what they do by finding ways of bringing it out of them through their work.

In the past, I shared my background in broadcasting, working in radio for decades prior to finding my passion that led to our weekly chats. I wish I could tell you that I had some great mentors during my career in radio. I didn’t. Broadcast radio is a cutthroat business. It’s transactional and temporary. The secret is, it’s no different than most industries. Most people never have a Brian Pinkett to guide them. Brian is clear eyed with regard to his mentorship approach as he is to the design work. 

Brian is exceptional at what he does and so we are going to celebrate his installment in the Convo By Design Icon Registry by looking back at one of his previous appearances on the show. I selected the panel conversation from the WestEdge Design Fair in 2019 since we just celebrated another fantastic WestEdge Design Fair. This conversation was titled, Design Diversity: Crafting Our World the Way it Should Be. This was the first conversation of its kind at a design fair. It was a conversation about race and design, about meritocracy and making the tent bigger for all who have something to offer. It was pre-Covid and before George Floyd’s murder set off a revolution in the U.S. This conversation also features Ron Woodson, Bridgette Coulter Cheadle and Breegan Jane. It was an exceptional conversation and I thought it would be a perfect way to look back and celebrate Brian Pinkett, the November 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry inductee.

BP

Thank you, Bridgette, Ron and Breegan for being a part of this really important conversation. Thank you, Brian for being a part of this and always willing to share what you know with anyone who will listen! Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

Spotlight on Design feat. Jaime Rummerfield and Marcos Santa Ana 539 | LIVE from Design Hardware in Los Angeles

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I’m josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a sampling from the Summer edition of the Designer Showcase event at Design Hardware. Every Season, we invite some of the most talented creatives from across the Southland and the U.S. to participate in strategic conversations, interviews, product launches and panel conversations. This is part of Design Hardware’s commitment to the design community. And we’ve got a sampling from that event.

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

This episode of the show features two very talented and very different creatives. The first is Jaime Rummerfield who you have heard before on the podcast. Jaime is an old friend and a crazy-talented designer. You have heard her before, usually with Ron Woodson, but things change and Jaime has gone out on her own. What’s that like? You’re going to find out. Then, you will hear from Marcos Santa Ana of Alloi. Marcos is an architect and general contractor with a very unique perspective on the work and art that is architecture. And you are going to hear all about it.

Thank you Jaime and Marcos. By the way, if you are listening to this on the day we published, November 12th, you still have time to see both of these amazing designers as well as dozens more at the WestEdge Design Fair, November 14th through the 16th at Barker Hangar in Santa Monica. Here is a link to get tickets to the show and see all of the incredible programming produced by Convo By Design. 

https://www.grsreg.com/westedge24/exhPass?exh=cxd

Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well.

Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

Iconic Architecture at the 2024 WestEdge Design Fair | 538 | A Preview AND Tickets to the Show

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with another preview episode as we get ready for the WestEdge Design Fair in Santa Monica, California. We’ll be back at the Barker Hanger for another installment of the show. That means another stage featuring 2 full days of talks and and thought provoking conversations. Thought provoking, yeah we’ve got that. And if you’d like to attend, here’s a link for tickets:

https://www.grsreg.com/westedge24/exhPass?exh=cxd

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Every year around April or May, I sit down and put pen to paper. I will write out dozens of program ideas from some of the most intriguing concepts that come from the podcast and sketch out what a more detailed conversation might look like. The episode you are about to hear is what inspired the Iconic Architecture program live from WestEdge and what ideas might be explored. This program is jam packed with heavy hitters in design and architecture covering a big concept. What makes architecture iconic and worth saving? The panel will include; Jaime Rummerfield, Christopher Goddard, Anthony Laney, Paul McClean and William Hefner. I am incredibly excited to sit and watch moderator, Alison Martino of Vintage LA navigate these treacherous waters. Everyone has an opinion, right? Where did this idea come from? Back in June of 2022, you heard an episode about 1001 North Roxbury, an extraordinary home in Beverly Hills. A home that was in remarkable condition, exceptionally designed and on a list of homes to be saved in Beverly Hills. It’s gone now. And you are going to hear how it happened.  Water under the bridge. But without understanding how this happened, what’s to keep it from happening again? This panel will be touching all points related at this years show and since I know you don’t want to miss it, make sure you come. There is a link in the show notes for tickets to WestEdge 2024. Now you can brush up on the topic a little bit with this journey back to Beverly Hills in 2022. And you’ll hear it all, right after this.

There you go. All the intrigue you could ever ask for! The origin for the Iconic Architecture panel at WestEdge Design Fair, November 14th-16th at the Barker Hangar is Santa Monica. Make sure you join us.  Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well.

Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

Love and Location. Making the Move and Leveling Up | 537 | Emily Baker Studio

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. Do you like where you live? If you lived somewhere, anywhere else, how might that change you? How might that affect your work, your creativity?

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Emily Baker is a multi-disciplinary creative endeavors in photography, illustration and a wallpaper line. Emily moved with her family to Portugal. Hold on. Let this sink in for a moment. Moved with her family to Portugal. I focus on this because I think this is at the crux of life and creativity. It’s difficult to make a move across town, let alone to another state. But another country? I would argue that the fear of unknown issues, financial issues let alone the basic concerns around language and social issues would be paralyzing. But it’s also incredibly exciting. The constant rush of adrenaline from the most mundane of tasks can both wreak havoc on the central nervous system and release a flurry of new thoughts and ideas. I have always loved moving. But what is the direct correlation to creative breakthroughs moving to a new environment have on the work? On life? Your’e about to find out in this episode of Convo By Design featuring Emily Baker of Emily Baker Studio. We’ll be right back.

Thank you Emily. Loved this chat and appreciate the time. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well.

Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD

Kyle Bunting | 536 | Our October 2024 Design Icon Registry Inductee

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This is the Convo By Design Icon Registry for October 2024 and it is an absolute joy for me to talk about this creative with reverence, respect and friendship. The October 2024 Convo By Design Icon Registry inductee is the incomparable, Kyle Bunting.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Kyle and I have known each other for a while and he has appeared on the podcast four times I think. And in all different ways, And he almost always brought friends. Not that he needed them, but Kyle is what you can call a consummate professional and chronic collaborator. He can’t help himself, and why should he?

Collaboration between manufacturer, designer, architect, GC, client, trades, showroom are all critically important for the success of the project. Collaboration takes many forms and unfortunately, sometimes, no form at all. In all my experience, not just in the built and designed space, but in every aspect of business, collaboration is mission critical. Without collaboration, there is no communication, nor partnership, nor exceeding goals, can’t be done for one very simple reason; Design projects, residential or commercial builds are all done using multiple partners and if those partners aren’t working collaboratively, mistakes are made, miscommunications happen and it generally leads to additional issues. Kyle Bunting os one of the most highly-skilled collaborators I know. He also has created an exceptional brand and a wonderful product.

It is my privilege to induct Kyle into the Convo By Design Icon Registry, JMC Studio has crafted an original piece to commemorate this and it will be sent to Kyle shortly, check out Instagram if you want  to see it. As we do here, this is Kyle Bunting from a previous appearance on Convo By Design.

KB

Thank you, Kyle for taking the time and the willingness to share your story.  Thank you for your constant willingness to bring others into the big tent and for creating such an exceptional product. Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

Stay in Your Lane! | 535 | SheSpoke Founder Joan Barton and Design Tonik’s Amy Theresa

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I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design featuring an old friend and a new one in a very familiar space, talking about what makes strong bonds and strategic partnerships work. All while staying in your lane.

Joan Barton, founder of Dirty Girl Construction and SheSpoke, a platform that explores the stories and successes woman-owned, operated and worked side of the construction and design industry shared the mic once again with an outstanding creative thinker, Amy Theresa | DesignTonik @DesignTonik.Amy is the founder of Design Tonik, art + design, specializing in residential and commercial interior design, furniture procurement, design consulting and event planning. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

This is a multi-hyphenate company because Amy is a multi-hyphenate creative. Making her perfect fro a conversation with Joan and another exploration into SheSpoke and open and honest conversation by and for women in the built space.

Joan and Amy explore these ideas and talk about the discoveries and changes in the industry since approximately 2017. This is how contacts are made, bonds are formed, partnerships solidified and wok gets done. And done in a selective purposeful way.

This conversation was recorded live from Design Hardware in Los Angeles as part of our Day of Design programming series. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.

Thank you Joan and Amy. Loved this chat and appreciate the time. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, Pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech. These are all fantastic partners with exceptional products and service to match. I have vetted these companies and I believe in them, and I think you should too. Check the show notes for direct links. Thank you for checking them out and specifying them on your next project. I also want to thank you for listening to the show and sharing Convo By Design with your friends, coworkers and colleagues who you think might enjoy it as well.

Please also keep the guest and show suggestions coming; convo by design at outlook dot com and on Instagram @convoxdesign, with an “x”. Until next week, be well and take today first. -CXD