Tag Archives: Interiors

Melissa Lee – New South Home |608 | Profit, Process & Purpose in Modern Interior Design and the Business Behind It

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We’re heading South today to hear from Melissa Lee of New South Home.  This Charlotte-based interior designer and former retail buyer pulls back the curtain on the real inner workings of running a design firm—from pricing strategy and client education to vendor relationships and market trends. Drawing from her experience in corporate buying, she has developed a clear understanding of profit margins, vendor management, and operational efficiency, which she now applies to her design business through practices like maintaining a vendor matrix and detailed time tracking. I don’t want you to think this is a business of design episode, it’s not. Sometimes these conversations go deeper into the business to further explain the work, this is one of those times. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

LOME-AI.com, simple, inexpensive, text to video harnessing the power of AI to grow your firm, beautifully.

Melissa discusses the challenges of pricing interior design work in a landscape full of conflicting advice—flat fee versus hourly models, for example—and how she has evolved her own “conceptually fixed with scope management” approach. Clients receive an upfront estimate based on hours, but additional fees apply when scope or decisions shift beyond agreed terms. This hybrid method offers flexibility while protecting the business from runaway labor costs.

Events like High Point Market and KBIS (Kitchen & Bath Industry Show) play a strategic role in how she sources vendors, stays inspired, and builds key relationships. She balances structured vendor meetings with looser time for discovery, realizing that over-scheduling stifles creativity. Her buying background taught her the value of planning, but in design, adaptability creates more opportunity.

The conversation digs into vendor relations in a shifting economic landscape, with concerns about rising tariffs, erratic pricing, and questionable fee increases. Thanks to long-standing relationships and proactive reps, her team has been buffered from the worst of it. Still, she builds flexibility into her contracts and transparently preps clients for potential 5% swings in final invoices due to supply chain or pricing changes—an approach appreciated in a world where nothing feels stable.

Managing client expectations is a recurring theme—from educating them on the unseen hours behind emails, revisions, and project coordination, to setting boundaries when projects creep beyond the original scope. Weekly check-ins, detailed proposals, and scope clarity help prevent misunderstandings and maintain trust.

Looking ahead, she sees potential challenges driven by economic uncertainty—rising tariffs, high interest rates, and general cost-of-living increases may stall some clients’ investment in their homes. But Charlotte’s rapid growth continues to fuel demand, giving her firm an edge in an evolving national market.

Melissa also hints at expanding service areas, including outdoor living design, and continues to explore how design firms can evolve—perhaps aided by AI or new business tools—to reduce burnout and reclaim creativity. At its heart, the conversation underscores the complexity of modern design businesses, where creativity, logistics, and business acumen must coexist. And you’re going to hear all about it, right after this.

Thank you, Melissa, loved our chat. Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, share it with a friend who loves design, subscribe to Convo By Design wherever you get your podcasts. And continue the conversation on Instagram @convo x design with an “x”. Keep those emails coming with guest suggestions, show ideas and locations where you’d like to see the show.

Thank you to my partner sponsors, TimberTech, The AZEK Company, Pacific Sales, Best Buy, LOME-AI and Design Hardware. These companies support the shelter industry so give them an opportunity on your next project. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, be well, stay focused and rise about the chaos. -CXD

Designing the South: Sorority Culture and Interiors That Tell a Story, One Room at a Time | 605 | Mary Clair Cumbaa, Cumbaa Design Company

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Design in the South is personal. It’s layered with heritage, shaped by hospitality, and built on relationships. Today, we travel to Starkville, Mississippi to explore the work and world of a designer who exemplifies what it means to design with heart.

The conversation begins with an emerging trend—dorm and sorority house design—not typically covered in design media, but a significant driver of business in Southern college towns. Sorority living, especially, has evolved into a lifestyle market, complete with high expectations, big budgets, and even bigger wear and tear. Designing for these spaces demands durability, performance, and style in equal measure. As the Mary Clair Cumbaa jokes, “Everything has to be spray-tan approved.”

Working on a sorority house for her own former chapter, she leans into color, symbolism, and storytelling. “I know the meaning behind things,” she says, weaving chapter colors, lighting, and fabric choices together to reflect both legacy and future needs. With girls living in two-year cycles, hundreds of members dining daily, and Zoom calls replacing quiet study sessions, the design must be not only beautiful but smart, emotionally supportive, and future-forward.

Storytelling is central to her work. “If I didn’t capture their real life, I’m not sure I would really be able to capture anything,” she says. Unlike many designers who stage photos with clinical precision, she leaves the coffee maker and the magnets on the fridge. There’s something refreshing—and intentional—about showing homes as they’re used. It’s real, approachable, and still inspiring.

That philosophy carries into her project portfolio, which is both colorful and cohesive. Take the Wetherbee Street kitchen: clean acrylic stools meet traditional cabinetry, a built-in bar peeks into frame, and the countertop hosts everyday appliances—because that’s how the client lives. “If the client can’t see themselves in the finished space, I haven’t done my job,” she explains.

Color is a consistent through-line in her work. While she began with a neutral palette, over time she’s become known for weaving multiple shades of the same hue across a room. Her nursery projects—some launched by acrylic cribs and butterfly wall art—bring this approach to life with playful purpose and emotional weight.

We also talk about historic preservation and transformation. Projects like Kirkwood Place and Greentree demonstrate her ability to revive storied homes with timeless flair. “We gutted it to the studs and brought it back to life,” she says of one home that once graced the cover of Southern Living. Another was the result of a seven-year client relationship that evolved into a deep friendship.

As the conversation winds down, she shares the dream project she’s still manifesting—a start-to-finish beach house in the 30A corridor. “I’ve done a condo, but I’d love to do a full house in Rosemary or Alys Beach,” she says with hopeful confidence.

And why not? Her story is one of evolution, rootedness, and authenticity. Mary Clair Cumbaa of Cumbaa Design Company, designs with empathy, leads with color, and listens deeply. It’s not just about beautiful rooms. It’s about making people feel seen, supported, and at home.

Order and Courage Amid Chaos. The Will to Style Meaningful Interiors | 604 | Barrie Spang, Sapphire Pear

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As hard as it is for me to believe, it’s August. It’s hard for me to believe it’s August because it just felt like it was January. I was feeling a little tense about a number of things on the horizon at that time. Thank goodness none of the feared chaos materialized. (6SS)

Okay, perhaps a little… Perhaps a lot. It might surprise you to know that it wasn’t Kelly Clarkson who came up with that concept. It was German philosopher, Fredrich Nietzsche. It can be found in his book, from 1888 called Twilight of the Idols. It’s an expanded philosophical approach to post-traumatic growth. This year has been the most stressful since the 2020-2022 Pandemic Era. If you recall, those challenges made our industry stronger, made us stronger. It’s a challenge to talk about life and death in the context of design. But it’s not a stretch at all to discuss these concepts while framing the quality of life and design.

Today, you are going to hear from Barrie Sprang of Sapphire Pear. 

Barrie shared her background in design, influenced by her grandmother’s interest in design school and her father’s work in high-end real estate in Cleveland. She expressed her lifelong passion for using color and bold textures in design, citing personal experiences with how colors can impact emotions and spaces. Josh praised her work for its use of color and texture but expressed a critique about her sometimes conservative approach, particularly given her background in the traditionally traditional Midwest. 

Barrie and I discuss the challenges of balancing client preferences with personal design philosophy, particularly regarding color choices. Barrie explained how her firm was built around bold, colorful designs, though she still accommodates clients who prefer neutral tones by incorporating subtle pops of color. They explored the impact of design trends, including the “Color of the Year” phenomenon, with Barrie noting that while it can inspire, it often leads to over-saturation in the market and potentially regrettable choices for clients.

We talk about the influence of coastal trends on Midwest culture, particularly in Ohio, where different cities like Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland have distinct styles. Barrie explained that post-pandemic, there has been an influx of people moving to Ohio from coastal cities, attracted by its affordable cost of living, lack of natural disasters, and the ability to work remotely. This migration has positively impacted Barrie’s business, allowing for more creative and custom design work at a lower cost due to lower labor and trade costs, as well as access to skilled Amish carpenters.

How the decline of traditional design centers, noting that the Cleveland Design Center has largely closed, and they now travel to Chicago for client meetings means to those affected. That the model has become less effective due to several factors, including the opening of design centers to the public, which made pricing confusing and diminished the special experience for designers and clients. They also observed that the proliferation of design houses and the ease of finding products online has watered down the quality of design experiences previously offered by these centers.

And how the challenges in the furniture industry, particularly regarding pricing, availability, and logistics are changing the way designers specify. How the pandemic and tariffs have affected supply chains, leading to long lead times and unexpected issues. Barrie emphasized the importance of maintaining strong relationships with manufacturers and showrooms to navigate these challenges. They also touched on the logistics of furniture production and distribution, noting the inefficiencies of the current point-to-point system in the U.S. and the potential benefits of a regional approach for some designers.

Barrie discussed several design projects, focusing on a colorful maximalist bedroom, a multi-color kitchen in Shaker Heights, and a whimsical bathroom in Rocky River. Barrie explained the design process and client preferences for each project, highlighting the use of custom elements and color palettes. Make sure to go to the show notes and click the link to see her work as she explains it.

I think these conversations can accomplish a few things that include; allowing you to hear how other creatives are experiencing the same thing you are and how they chose to address these issues. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.

That was Barrie Sprang of Sapphire Pear. A magnificent kitchen designed for a thruple. That is a first on the show and I love that.  Thank you, Barrie. Loved our chat. Since I opened with Nietzsche, I’ll close with a quote of his.

“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.”

While widely credited to Nietzsche, there is no evidence he actually said it. But there was no internet in the 1800’s, so I choose to believe he said it. And just how important this idea is. Being true to the ideals, morals and vision that drive you as a creative will always be challenge to maintain. As the philosophical force known a Steelers Wheel once pondered, “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you. Don’t let the clowns and jokers define you or your work. It’s easier said than done. I know.

Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, share it with a friend who loves design, subscribe to Convo By Design wherever you get your podcasts. And continue the conversation on Instagram @convo x design with an “x”. Keep those emails coming with guest suggestions, show ideas and locations where you’d like to see the show.

Thank you to my partner sponsors, TimberTech, The AZEK Company, Pacific Sales, Best Buy and Design Hardware. These companies support the shelter industry so give them an opportunity on your next project. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, stay focused and rise about the chaos. -CXD

Jeff Andrews | 602 | Our July 2025 Convo By Design Icon Registry Inductee

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Welcome to the Convo By Design Icon Registry episode for the month of July, 2025. This month’s inductee is someone you certainly know, a West Coast design staple and someone with whom I have had a number of conversations. Jeff Andrews first appearance on the show was in 2019 and then again in 2020. Just before the world shut down. Jeff and I spoke form his Legends of LaCienega showroom window in May, 2019. He later appeared on a panel conversation at WestEdge in 2019. The last iteration of the show until 2022. 

The Convo By Design Icon Registry is presented by Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home, a Best Buy company. Pacific Sales is comprised of long time professionals who love design and architecture as much as you do. Which is why it is so fitting that they present this recognition of some of the worlds greatest design talent every month here on Convo By Design. 

On the show today, you are going to hear from Jeff again. These were his appearances on the show from 2019. First, you will hear the individual conversation with Jeff from Legends and then, you will hear the conversation form WestEdge. I hope you enjoy hearing these again as much as I enjoy sharing them with you. Jeff, thank you for all you do for the industry and providing such joy through your work.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

This wraps up another episode of the Convo By Design Icon Registry. A celebration and recognition of a true master in the art of design and the mastery of all that encompasses in the pursuit of making better the lives of those he serves. And, giving back along the way. Thank you, Jeff and congratulations. Some of the things I truly enjoyed were the retelling of inspiration that led to his window design at Legends and the Doorbell story. It’s the little things, right?

Thanks for listening to Convo By Design. Thank you to my partner sponsors, Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home for presenting the Convo By Design Icon Registry and Convo By Design partner sponsors, TimberTech and Design Hardware. And thank you for taking the time to listen. I couldn’t do this without you, wouldn’t want to. I hope this show helps you stay motivated, inspired and focused so you can rise above the chaos. -CXD

Mastering ‘The Pivot’ and Leaning in On Change | 595 | Lindsie Davis, Blueberry Jones Design | Convo By Design

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This is Convo By Design—where we explore the ideas, people, and projects shaping the future of design. But you know that, I imagine this is why you listen each week… To hear stories behind the design. One of the things I have been thinking about lately is how ideas, feelings and purpose can change over time. When I started CXD in January of 2013, I thought I was speaking to design and architecture clients. Homeowners who wanted to learn about the stories behind design. From the response I received, almost immediately, I realized it was the trade I was speaking to. Well, that’s who was listening. And it was that way for years. It was probably around 2015 or 2016 that homeowners were listening and speaking to their designers about imbuing their story into the work. Personalizing it which prior to that was still seen as a detriment to resale. That idea is pretty much gone now, and that’s a good thing.

Blueberry Jones Projects.

In this episode, I’m speaking with Lindsie Davis, the creative force behind Bluberry Jones, a design firm based in Texas. Lindsie’s story is rooted in authenticity—an interior designer who once felt uncomfortable in the spotlight, but found herself pulled into a public-facing role by the very nature of her work. Her creative journey weaves through fashion, art education, and eventually, full-scope interior design, fueled by instinct, passion, and an unwavering desire to build spaces with soul.

From her first unexpected design job at a paint store to launching a firm amid the uncertainty of 2020, Lindsie has leaned into change—and thrived in it. We talk about her evolution from the suburbs of Dallas to the creative haven of Wimberley, the cultural rise of Texas design, and the very real challenges and rewards of running a design business in a rapidly growing, ever-shifting market like Austin.

This conversation also dives deep into kitchens—yes, white kitchens, colorful kitchens, and how even the smallest design decisions can echo with intention and meaning. Lindsie’s perspective is one of quiet confidence, shaped by creativity, hard-earned business acumen, and a genuine love for making homes better, one thoughtful layer at a time.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

That was Lindsie Davis of Bluberry Jones. A designer with a sharp eye, a creative spirit, and a grounded understanding of how to make spaces work beautifully and meaningfully for the people who live in them.

Her story is a reminder that design is rarely a straight line—it’s a winding road of experiments, pivots, passion, and perseverance. Whether she’s reimagining a kitchen, collaborating with architects on multi-year projects, or navigating the changing landscape of Texas design, Lindsie brings intentionality and warmth to every corner she touches.

Thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, share it with a friend who loves design, subscribe to Convo By Design wherever you get your podcasts. And continue the conversation on Instagram @convo x design with an “x”. Keep those emails coming with guest suggestions, show ideas and locations where you’d like to see the show.

Thank you to my partner sponsors, TimberTech, The Azek Company, Pacific Sales, Best Buy and Design Hardware. These companies support the shelter industry so give them an opportunity on your next project. Thanks again for listening. Until next time, stay focused and rise about the chaos. -CXD

Technical Application of Design Principles and Addressing the Curve in Design Thought | 585 | Maggie Griffin of Maggie Griffin Design

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Application and practical application of tools and techniques. These are just a few of the topics discussed in today’s conversation with designer Maggie Griffin, founder of eponymous firm in Gainesville, Georgia. We are discussing more than design today. A lot more, actually. The changing landscape of the industry and staying ahead of the curve. Oh, that pesky curve.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

The trouble with the curve, and staying ahead of it is that if you don’t actively stay ahead of it, it passes you by before you know it. Like AI for example. Many designers fear it, most don’t really understand it. Those choosing to ignore it, or simply dabble won’t lose their clients because of AI. They will lose their clients to designers who adapt and understand how to best use AI in unimaginable ways that will take costs down, increase specification of better products and materials, shrink the timeline and make the absolute most of every designable opportunity. It’s true. Maggie and I are chopping this up along with a number of other ideas like;

  • Exploring AI tools in practice
  • AI and interior design application
  • Industry trends and challenges
  • Achieving balance of technology and residential design
  • Kitchen design
  • Product specification and client trust
  • Bathroom design concepts
  • Achieving functionality without sacrificing aesthetic 

Thank you, Maggie. Enjoyed this. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors, TimberTech, Pacific Sales, and Design Hardware. Amazing companies and great friends to the trade so please give them an opportunity for your next project. Thank you for listening, subscribing to the show and sharing with your colleagues. If not already subscribing, please consider that so you receive every new episode automatically to your podcast feed.

Please keep those emails coming convo by design at outlook dot com and follow the conversation on Instagram, @ConvoXDesign with an “X”.

Until next week, thank you for sharing this time together, until the next episode, be well, stay focused and now that it has arrived in earnest, try to rise above the chaos. – CXD

KBIS Confidential: LIVE from KBIS 2025 | 574 | Pitch to Published – Get Your Projects the Love They Deserve

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Part One – Pitch to Published: Best Practices and Strategies to Get Your Projects Published

Learn what the pros know about getting projects published and how professional photography, narrative creation and knowing your audience can set you apart. Learn how can brand partnerships help get your designs promotion and exposure to potential new clients as well as new branding and revenue generating opportunities.

Featuring: Vanessa DeLeon – CEO & Principal Designer | Vanessa DeLeon Associates, Kathryn Given – Style Director | LUXE Interiors + Design and Amy Chernoff – VP of Marketing | AJ Madison

This is a comprehensive conversation for design and publicity professions that details and outlines ways to get designers projects into the public media. Topics include;

  • Process (prep)
  • Strategy – Photography, story, client approvals, art clearances, etc.
  • The Pitch
  • Creative deliverables, photography, re-shoots, etc.
  • Promotion
  • Expectations

Clear Communication for that Aha Moment | 571 | Paulina Hospod, Aha! Interiors

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Words matter. They are important not just for the sake of clear communications but to showcase the specific skillset one has in an effort to attract a suitable client. Suitability. If you are a regular listener to Convo By Design you know what I am talking about. If not, first, hopefully you will be a regular listener, second, the idea of suitability in all endeavors is more important now than ever before.  Suitability means vibing and open to new ideas through a mutual trust. A mutual trust allows someone to communicate with another, without having to masque every idea under the veil of “correctness”, in whatever form that may take. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

No, we are not going to be talking about politics or anything that might make anyone uncomfortable. Today, you are going to hear my conversation with Paulina Hospod with Aha!Interiors about design vs. renovation and subtle details. Sometimes, subtle details make all the difference between the overused, overplayed looks you can find while doomscrolling on the socials. Design should make us happy, and were going to explore that idea with Paulina, right after this.

Thank you, Paulina. Loved our chat. Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Pacific Sales, and Design Hardware. Amazing companies and great friends to the trade so please give them an opportunity for your next project. And, thank you for listening, subscribing the show and sharing with your colleagues. If not already subscribing, please consider that so you receive every new episode automatically to your podcast feed. Until next week, thank you for sharing this time together, until the next episode, be well, stay focused and now that it has arrived in earnest, try to rise above the chaos. – CXD

Midwest Sensibility and Hand-Crafted Design | 569 | Bailey Todd, White Cliff Studio

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For the past 12 years, it has been a mission to bring you voices and stories of talent in design, architecture and the arts. There have been so many twists and turns over these past 12 years and many of you have been with me since the early days of the show. A few ideas that often come back to me when presenting these conversations. Two major themes are authenticity and suitability. Two words that you don’t hear often. The first being authenticity in design and the other, which you never hear, except here is suitability. Were going to drill down on both this week.

Today on the show, you are going to hear from Bailey Todd of White Cliff Studio. Bailey and her Midwest minded, Illinois based firm deals in authenticity in all her projects and we will dig in a bit. It’s the suitability idea that I have been focused on lately. For years, I have been non-plussed by the trades, magazines and social media prognosticators alike and this is the perfect way to draw the correlation between the influencer and the influential. The influencer will tell you just how great they are and because they know, here are the things with which you should surround yourself. Influentials on the other hand, this is experienced based knowledge shared with you by people who know because they have experience. I really enjoyed my conversation with Bailey and I think yo will too. She knows her industry, she understands her business and she is willing to chop it up and share. Love that. And, it’s coming up, right after this.

Thank you to my incredible partner sponsors, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Pacific Sales, Monogram and Design Hardware. Amazing companies and great friends to the trade so please give them an opportunity for your next project. And, thank you for listening, subscribing the show and sharing with your colleagues. If not already subscribing, please consider that so you receive every new episode automatically to your podcast feed. Until next week, thank you for sharing this time together, until the next episode, be well, stay focused and now that it has arrived in earnest, try to rise above the chaos. – CXD

How Exceptional Design is Like Long Distance Running or Any Great Achievement | 551 | Holly Hollenbeck

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Over the years, I have spoken with many clients who really don’t understand the process behind design. I think there are many beginner and mid-level designers that don’t fully understand process, means and methods. If a client wants their projects completed quickly, they can always find a designer who will do it for them. It’s their replacement who has to pick up the pieces. I can hear many of you nodding in agreement as I say this. It’s the journey, like that of a runner. You don’t decide to run a marathon, buy a pair of shoes and run it. There is a process. A very long and challenging process. The same is true when trying to become the best at what you do in any endeavor. Just like design.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Today, you are going to hear from Holly Hollenbeck. Holly and I discussed the parallels between long-distance running and project management. Holly, an experienced ultra-distance runner, shared her lessons learned from participating in challenging races, emphasizing the importance of strategic planning, determination, and experience. She also highlighted how these experiences have influenced her approach to project strategy and risk management. 

Holly shares some of the challenges she faced in her design and client management roles due to the Covid-19 pandemic and economic fluctuations. She emphasized the importance of clear communication with clients, setting expectations upfront, and being flexible to pivot when necessary. We also discussed the differences in real estate design and mentality between the United States, Europe, and Asia, with a focus on the concept of the ancestral home and the shift towards renovating existing homes rather than moving due to high housing costs. There is an overwhelming need to adapt to constantly changing market conditions and client needs.

Holly shares her experience of having her kitchen design featured on the cover of California Home and Design in 2007, which she attributed to serendipity and connections with friends. Holly and I discussed the pitfalls of designing homes based on current trends, emphasizing the importance of creating cohesive, functional spaces rather than focusing on individual, trendy elements. They highlighted the risk of a design becoming outdated and the need to balance trendy elements with timeless pieces. Holly shared her approach to navigating clients’ desires for trendy features by ensuring these elements are used in unique and personalized ways. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.

Thank you Holly, loved our chat. Keep on truckin.

Thank you to my incredible partner/ sponsors; ThermaSol, Design Hardware, pacific Sales, Monogram and TimberTech for your support for the show and the industry as a whole. We are a stronger because of industry partners like you. And of course, thank you for listening to the podcast, subscribing to the show and sharing it with friends and colleagues. Please keep the show and guest suggestions coming, I do appreciate them and do my best to respond to every one.  Convo By Design @ Outlook dot com and on Instagram, convoXDesign, with an “X”.  Thanks again for listening. Happy New Year, make this the year you’ve been hoping it would be. Until the next episode, Stay focused and above the chaos.