I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. Today, we are heading back to Texas. If you are new to the show, I love Texas. I have family there. I lived in Dallas for 9 years. For many years, I had a spin-ff of the podcast called Lone Star House of Design. Texas is not one of the design fly-overs. It has been for a long time, but the pandemic launched a movement that has since gone parabolic.
Today, you are going to hear from Katie Davis, founder of her eponymous firm in Houston. But that is only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Katie is one of those designers who took the longest route possible to interior design. And I love this so much because I love hearing the story behind and through the journey. Katie started out as an attorney. A working attorney meaning she went to law school, passed the Bar Exam. Launched Katie Davis Design in 2018 and now, you are going to hear the rest of the story as well as a guided tour through some of her projects. Love this and we are going to get to it, right after this.
Thank you Katie for your time, talent and willingness to share. I love these conversations. I love sharing them with you. Please continue to email me with your guest and show suggestions. Convo by design@outlook.com and reach out via Instagram, @ConvoXDesign with an “X”.
Thank you to Convo By Design partner sponsors, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Pacific Sales and Design Hardware. For more information about and links to these incredible companies and to learn more about their products, please check the show notes.
For more stories like these from the design community, please make sure you are subscribing to the podcast, so you receive new episodes automatically when they are published. That way, you never miss an episode. Convo By Design is available everywhere you find your favorite podcasts. Thanks for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design
I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. This episode features writer, speaker and architect, Peter Pennoyer. We are talking about classic architecture from a French Modern Townhouse to a rural Farm House, a log cabin in the Adirondacks. That is a broad stretch, so much to talk about.
We are two weeks into 2022 and dealing with Omicron,the next variant of this seemingly endless pandemic. I bring it up not to tell you what you already know, but because architecture and design are just as important to getting through this as vaccines and protective procedures. This is not a political statement, but one of empirical data. Interior designers are making our homes more functional and architects are crafting new concepts into homes of today to address these issues when something like this happens again.
Peter Pennoyer is the founder of his namesake firm, Peter Pennoyer Architects. Peter is president of the Whiting Foundation, a nonprofit that supports scholars and writers. He has served on the board ion the Institute of Classical Architecture and his formal training in past architecture has influenced how he crafts for the future. Peter has been recognized and awarded far too often to mention them here. Awards follow the work, as form follows function. We discuss more about that and review some projects over the next hour. Enjoy this conversation with architect, Peter Pennoyer.
But first, if you listened to last weeks episode you know, I made a very special announcement…Convo By Design presents the 2022 Remote Design House | Tulsa. A unique idea around an equally unique show house. I have been wanting to do another design house project for many years now, but the right opportunity had not presented itself. Sure, there were projects, but none were right for me. Then, the pandemic hit. Here I was, producing a podcast for 8 years and all of a sudden, the entire industry stops working in an office and trying to figure out what the future of design is even going to look like. I am going to go a bit further down that rabbit hole in future episodes. Right now, I want to tell you where this is all going. In the first 200 days of the pandemic, I recorded over 100 interviews, conversations and panels. Like you probably did, I dived into the work, for two reasons. The first was to keep myself from going crazy with a family of four in a small house, trying to keep everyone calm and not lose my cool in the face of something scary and unknown. The second part was a strong belief at the time that our industry was on the precipice of something amazing. I had no idea that the product would be in short supply until the summer of 2020. I was on a run in Manhattan Beach, California on day, unable to run along the Strand, I was forced into a neighboring alley and noticed all of the boxes awaiting trash pickup. I started counting and identifying the boxes which became a hobby and way on passing the miles while running through mostly empty streets and alleys. The boxes were TV’s, appliances, office furniture and equipment. There were fitness equipment boxes and all kinds of design materials and product. I remember the “a-ha” moment for me was later in the Fall. I had completed recording and airing a series called, “Designing for Disaster.” You can still find these episodes in the CXD stream.
Designers architects were telling me that, of their clients, the ones that could were escaping to mountain, beach and more remote locations to live this out and using the opportunity to remodel both homes. Designers and architects, you know this… You have been busy ever since. Part of this new professional reality meant that embracing the new technology like Zoom, Slack, Base Camp, Microsoft Office and Google Drive was now a mandatory part of their jobs. This also meant that they would be required to design from a distance. That is something that represents the most revolutionary element for the design trade. How can you continue to work with your clients, now on the move and do what you do which traditionally was almost all in person and face to face.
I wanted to find out and so here we are in Tulsa, Oklahoma with a really special project house that is going to be reimagined by some of the world’s most talented creatives, none of whom are from Tulsa, this house is real and and the design is completely remote, the meets are all virtual and the work is being completed locally by local craftsmen, artisans and tradesmen. I haven’t seen a project like this before, so I really don’t have anything with which to compare it. So, we will learn together. Episodes featuring the designers and design partners are coming soon.
York Wallcoverings: Wallpaper is having a moment, a well deserved moment that is allowing designers to craft and create in new and amazing ways. Convo By Design has a new partner this year. This partnership includes participation in our Remote Design House | Tulsa project of which you will be hearing a lot about this year. I have been working closely with an exclusive group of partners and I am absolutely thrilled to be working with York Wallcoverings. This company has been crafting exquisite wall coverings for over a century with an archive that dates back to the early 18th century. This deeply rich history provides inspiration for the future, and the designs available through the York Wallcoverings Studio have long been lauded for their authenticity and craftsmanship. This art, artistry and history combined with a commitment to continually reimagining the manufacturing process allows York Wallcoverings to provide a consistently exquisite product. For options and inspiration, find them online, York Wallcoverings dot com. You can also find their store locator tool for a location near you.
Thank you, Peter. Not much makes me happier than deep dives like this! Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design. Thank you ThermaSol, Article, York Wallcoverings and Franz Viegener for your partnership. You are remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. And, thank you for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve. Until next week. Be well and take today first.
I’m Josh Cooperman, this is Convo By Design and just like that it’s 2022. Where did 2021 go? Same place 2020 went, in the annals of history as a year the design industry (or any industry for that matter) will soon forget. We made it through and as this tight knit group of creatives and seekers of creativity did at the end of 2020, we lean into 2022 with high hopes. I wanted to start off the year with a new installment of the Wellness and Design Thought Leadership Series presented by ThermaSol. that deals with, among other things, the idea of aging in place and designing with that in mind. Andrea Hysmith is the founder and principal designer behind ASH Interiors and Design. Her Ellicott City, Maryland firm specialize in crafting design that evolves in tandem with stage of life. Hysmith is a Certified Aging in Place Specialist. We are going to get into that in just a moment.
An announcement. A big one and this is something I am so excited about that it really has been a challenge not to talk about it already…
Convo By Design presents the 2022 Remote Design House | Tulsa. A unique idea around an equally unique show house. I have been wanting to do another design house project for many years now, but the right opportunity had not presented itself. Sure, there were projects, but none were right for me. Then, the pandemic hit. Here I was, producing a podcast for 8 years and all of a sudden, the entire industry stops working in an office and trying to figure out what the future of design is even going to look like. I am going to go a bit further down that rabbit hole in future episodes. Right now, I want to tell you where this is all going. In the first 200 days of the pandemic, I recorded over 100 interviews, conversations and panels. Like you probably did, I dived into the work, for two reasons. The first was to keep myself from going crazy with a family of four in a small house, trying to keep everyone calm and not lose my cool in the face of something scary and unknown. The second part was a strong belief at the time that our industry was on the precipice of something amazing. I had no idea that the product would be in short supply until the summer of 2020. I was on a run in Manhattan Beach, California on day, unable to run along the Strand, I was forced into a neighboring alley and noticed all of the boxes awaiting trash pickup. I started counting and identifying the boxes which became a hobby and way on passing the miles while running through mostly empty streets and alleys. The boxes were TV’s, appliances, office furniture and equipment. There were fitness equipment boxes and all kinds of design materials and product. I remember the “a-ha” moment for me was later in the Fall. I had completed recording and airing a series called, “Designing for Disaster.” You can still find these episodes in the CXD stream.
Designers architects were telling me that, of their clients, the ones that could were escaping to mountain, beach and more remote locations to live this out and using the opportunity to remodel both homes. Designers and architects, you know this… You have been busy ever since. Part of this new professional reality meant that embracing the new technology like Zoom, Slack, Base Camp, Microsoft Office and Google Drive was now a mandatory part of their jobs. This also meant that they would be required to design from a distance. That is something that represents the most revolutionary element for the design trade. How can you continue to work with your clients, now on the move and do what you do which traditionally was almost all in person and face to face.
I wanted to find out and so here we are in Tulsa, Oklahoma with a really special project house that is going to be reimagined by some of the world’s most talented creatives, none of whom are from Tulsa, this house is real and and the design is completely remote, the meets are all virtual and the work is being completed locally by local craftsmen, artisans and tradesmen. I haven’t seen a project like this before, so I really don’t have anything with which to compare it. So, we will learn together. Episodes featuring the designers and design partners are coming soon.
Speaking of amazing partners.
If you have been listening to Convo By Design for a while, you have heard me tell you about Article. Great style really is simple with Article. Things have been challenging for design professionals and their clients, you know this, what you might not know is that it doesn’t have to be if you are looking for exceptionally beautiful modern furniture. Article provides a simple and easy way to creating a beautiful modern space. Because Article works direct with their manufacturers on production of unique and stunning pieces, then they work directly by providing this well crafted design directly to you. This direct relationship means you aren’t wondering where your furniture is, AND you are getting it for an incredible value. Even more… Their culture and service are rooted in their core values, Customer Obsession, Do it differently, Ownership Mindset, Win together. If you are a designer, architect or residential developer you must check out their Trade Program. Discounts, special support and exclusive perks. Article has the beautiful modern furniture you’re looking for. Check them out.
Thank you, Andrea. I appreciate what you do and our time together. This has been another installment of the Wellness and Design Thought Leadership Series presented by ThermaSol. Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design. Thank you Article, York Wallcoverings and Franz Viegener for your partnership. You are remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. And, thank you for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve. Until next week. Be well and take today first.
I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with photographer, artist and sculptor Nicole Landau who describes herself as a “Contemporary multimedia artist working in photography and monumental illuminated sculpture.” Succinct, but incomplete. I think we all work so hard to define ourselves for social media knowing that we have such limited time to try and explain who we are and what we do. This is why I dislike social media as much as I do, but also recognize that it is part of our lives, both social and professional, but that is also the main reason why I love doing this podcast and speaking with creatives like Nicole in a long format conversation. It gives both guest and myself an opportunity to meander a bit, take some time to really explore each other and share fully composed thoughts. Nicole is incredibly talented and I think you will appreciate all the detail in the following conversation.
Thank you for listening and subscribing to Convo By Design, a podcast for the design and architecture trade. Inside stories and in depth conversations with those shaping the industry. If you are not already doing so, please subscribe to the podcast. You will find Convo By Design everywhere you find your favorite shows like Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts and Design Network dot org.
Convo By Design is presented by Walker Zanger, an incredible partner in design. The show is also supported by ThermaSol, another design partner who is always looking to help designers and architects do their best work. For more information from both of these amazing partners, as well as this weeks guest, you will find direct links in the show notes.
Thank you, Nicole. Your work is thoughtful and grand.It makes me think about not just what is, but what will be at the same time, pondering what it could be were the circumstances different. To me, that is the superpower of an artist and creator…. To present something that is both well defined and open to interpretation. Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design. Thank you ThermaSol for your partnership. You are both remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. And, thank you for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve.
This is the final episode of 2021. It has been quite a year, one of openings, closings, re-openings and one in which we all took stock in what we have, what we’ve missed and most importantly, what we want in the future. Besides for our product to get delivered in a reasonable amount of time. Next year, there are some big things coming from Convo by Design, like our first ever design house project. A unique project featuring some of the most creative designers in the country and I am really excited to share this with you. But for now, take some time to pause, recharge, give yourself permission to hop off social media for a while and chill.
This is Convo By Design featuring an absolutely amazing creative whose zig-zagged creative journey took many turns in a path that found him in the envious position in which he sits today. Founder and CEO of his namesake multi-line showroom. This is Anderson Somerselle. As you might imagine, after hosting and producing this show for 8 years soon to be in our 9th, I speak to many creatives who each have their own personal and professional journey and you hear from them once they have arrived. I find the path fascinating and no two paths are alike. Some are similar, but none exactly the same.
Anderson Somerselle is originally from the Virgin Islands. His path took what I like to call ‘pinballing through the biz’ which so many of us, myself included seem to do on our way to where we feel we should be. Somerselle has worked luxury design retail on the floor, later running departments within luxury design showrooms. Anderson gathered the experience and started his own luxury showroom featuring an impressive collection of unique brands. His methods are different than traditional showrooms and because of this, he offers a unique showroom experience. You will learn all about it here.
Thank you for listening and subscribing to Convo By Design, a podcast for the design and architecture trade. Inside stories and in depth conversations with those shaping the industry. If you are not already doing so, please subscribe to the podcast. You will find Convo By Design everywhere you find your favorite shows like Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts and Design Network dot org.
Convo By Design is presented by Walker Zanger, an incredible partner in design. The show is also supported by ThermaSol, another design partner who is always looking to help designers and architects do their best work. For more information from both of these amazing partners, as well as this weeks guest, you will find direct links in the show notes.
Thank you, Anderson. Love your story and really appreciate you sharing it. Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design. Thank you ThermaSol for your partnership. You are both remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. And, thank you for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve. Until next week, be well and take today first.
This is Convo By Design with a multi-discipline creative who, as an actor worked iconic television shows like Ally McBeal, Nip/ Tuck and Arrested Development. She, as you will hear knows her art. So much so that she recently launched a business designed to bring incredible art to the general public. This is Portia de Rossi.
I find myself often telling you, “I know what you’re thinking.” It’s not true, just a bad habit of mine. That said, I think it is relatively safe to say that many might think, this performer or that public figure is great at what they became famous for, what could they possibly know about this or that. Understood. At the same time, the same discipline that allowed Portia de Rossi to be the accomplished actor that she is, makes it possible for her to be equally successful in a new endeavor of which she is equally passionate. Art.
A few weeks ago, you heard my conversation with musician, philanthropist and photographer, Julian Lennon. Well, Portia and her company, General Public is the organization that brought his work to the public through their relationship with Restoration Hardware. It’s funny, I call it Restoration Hardware because that is how I have always known it, but they changed their name in 2017 to “RH” and you will hear Portia make sure I know it.
This platform creates an amazing opportunity for designers to help their clients by providing another source fro great work at a time when specifying anything design related comes with capricious delivery dates and a high probability of reselecting. It’s about finding something that you love, that clients will love into the future. Portia has crafted a place for that and a partnership with unbelievable design talent and an outlet like RH. Enjoy my conversation with actor, philanthropist, art aficionado and entrepreneur with a really strong idea. This is Portia de Rossi.
Thank you, Portia. I really enjoyed our time together. Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design. Thank you ThermaSol for your partnership. You are both remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. And, thank you for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve. Until next week, be well and take today first.
This is Convo By Design with a chat about a boutique approach to international design. Not exclusively, but with a focus on how to grow a design firm to include an international clientele. I sat down with Philip Thomas Vanderford and Jason James Jones to talk about international business and domestic business in interior design. They operate Studio Thomas James from their studio in Dallas where they also operate a workroom to build custom pieces.
The following chat is going to cover a lot of ground of which every interior designer should be aware. And, if you are thinking of ways to grow your client base both domestically and internationally, you are going to love this. Philip and Jason have a calm approach to this turbulent business. Calm is good and when you combine this approach with a seasoned view to all things design in an ever changing world, it makes for a terrific conversation. One that I do hope you enjoy.
This is Convo By Design, a podcast for the design community available everywhere you find your favorite podcasts, like Design Network dot org and Apple Podcasts so make sure to subscribe to the show so you don’t miss a single episode. And you are not going to want to miss a single episode, trust me. While we throttle things down for the holidays, I am preparing a slate of shows for you in 2022 that you are going to absolutely love. A tease, Convo By Design is working on our first ever design house and it is a project the likes of which you have not seen before. Because this project takes many of the elements we have experienced over the past 18 months and uses a real project home in a very remote location in collaboration with some of the most talented designers working today. This project house is being presented in a way that doesn’t require you to see it in person to understand all the finer details in the work. It is remote, not virtual meaning the house is real as is all of the incredible work you see so stay connected and subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss a minute.
Thank you, Jason and Philip. I really enjoyed our time together. Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design. Thank you ThermaSol for your partnership. You are both remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. And, thank you for listening. As you may have noticed, Convo By Design is bringing you design talent from all across the country. It’s not just about LA and New York, but Alabama, Louisiana and yes, Dallas! Thanks again for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve. Until next week, be well and take today first.
This is Convo By Design with a very special conversation that transcends design. Today we are talking about doing well, doing good, an eye for the unique and creating an exclusive collection of photography. We also talk music, travel and getting lost to find yourself with Julian lennon.
At one point in this conversation with Julian Lennon, you are going to hear a rare confession. His song Too Late For Goodbyes was in my top 5 mix tape songs that I made for girlfriends in high school. It’s embarrassing for 2 reasons, one is because that is a very middle-school thing to do and two, how many of you listening know what a mixtape is? Exactly. I bring this up because I felt a special connection to Lennon prior to actually speaking with him. It is very much the same type of connection I have when speaking with designers, architects and product designers whose work speaks to me. It is probably a similar feeling you have as well and that connection is what transcends design from something super luxurious, expensive or beautiful to work that has some form of direct connection to the creative themselves.
My conversation with Julian covers his photography, the inspiration behind it as well as the journey required to capture every image. And how you can get them for your space or that which you are designing for your clients. Yes we also talk about music and the connection between photography and his music. This was a really fun conversation for me and one that would not have been possible had we not become so proficient with virtual meetings. Julian joined me from his home in Monaco, and I am truly appreciative for that.
If you are not already subscribing to the podcast,please do so you get every episode automatically when they are published. You can find Convo By Design everywhere you find your favorite podcasts and now, you can find us on DesignNetwork dot Org, a destination dedicated to podcasts, all things design and architecture so make sure to check it out. And , if you need some help, ask Alexa or Siri for help. Just Say, “hey Siri, play Convo By Design podcast?” And, she will!
Thank you, Julian. I really enjoyed our chat and look forward to doing it again. Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design. Thank you ThermaSol for your partnership. You are both remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. And, thank you for listening. As you may have noticed, Convo By Design is bringing you design talent from all across the country. It’s not just about LA and New York, but Alabama, Louisiana and now, Monaco! Thanks again for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve. Until next week, be well and take today first.
I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. We are making a virtual stop in another American design destination, Arkansas. I know what you’re thinking, I get it…Keep reading.
Sometimes, the heart and mind of a true pioneer allows them to see the opportunity right where they are and eliminate the journey altogether. Chris Goddard is one such design pioneer who happens to be based in Springdale Arkansas. Arkansas is, to many just another southern state they will never visit. If you are one of those individuals, I will encourage you to rethink that position. The state itself is home to some of the most beautiful wilderness anywhere in the world and a train that is perfect for creative design. Because he is based in Arkansas doesn’t mean that is the exclusive location for his work. He is an international designer with TV cred as well. We talk about his design journey beginning in Arkansas and extending out into international design. As you listen, pay special attention to his approach and philosophy regarding the work. You will notice some through lines in thought that directly reflects what many of the incredible talent has to say about the work. One lesson here is that you cannot judge great design by its location although many still do. The other is, as we emerge from this amazing and highly disruptive moment inn time, states like Oklahoma, Arkansas and Kansas provide a lower cost of living, higher quality of life and the same ability to work as LA, New York and Boston. For a fraction of the cost. It seems pretty attractive, right? Just wait until you hear Chris explain it.
If you are not already subscribing to the podcast,please do so you get every episode automatically when they are published. You can find Convo By Design everywhere you find your favorite podcasts and now, you can find us on DesignNetwork dot Org, a destination dedicated to podcasts, all things design and architecture so make sure to check it out. And , if you need some help, ask Alexa or Siri for help. Just Say, “hey Siri, play Convo By Design podcast?” And, she will!
Thank you, Chris. I really enjoyed our chat and look forward to doing it again. Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design. Thank you ThermaSol for your partnership. You are both remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. And, thank you for listening. As you may have noticed, Convo By Design is bringing you design talent from all across the country. It’s not just about LA and New York, but Alabama, Louisiana and now, Monaco! Thanks again for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve. Until next week, be well and take today first.
This is Convo By Design with a conversation about the business of design. No pretty sofas, rugs or lamps….Just the nuts and bolts. You might say, “hey Josh, you talk about the business of design quite often, what makes this any different?” And you would be right. I try to bring you different perspectives about the business as often as I can from as many different perspectives as possible. It’s critical to both the success of the industry as well as those that make up business of design from designers, architects, editors, writers, photographers, tradespeople, showroom managers, manufacturers and even clients to understand the how the machine works to keep it working even when there has been as much upheaval as there has been since late Q1 2020.
Let’s be honest here, not many were prepared for the events resulting from the pandemic. Many are still not prepared for what comes next. Why? Well, because we have no idea what’s coming next. Or do we? This is another installment of the Wellness and Thoughts Leadership Series presented by ThermaSol. The series is being produced to provide insight about issues like these.
I am editing this episode at the end of September, 2021. According to multiple reports, there are now 62 ships off the California coast waiting to offload cargo. Some of this product might be yours! A few months ago, I Was reporting that there were 40 ships waiting at these very same ports. Now, at the very same time, there are over 150 ships waiting to LOAD cargo off the coast of China. Not everything comes from China, but much of it does and if it isn’t getting loaded, it can’t be delivered.
This is not the only challenge right now, but it is a glaring one and one that you first must recognize in order to address many of the others. So, my conversation today is with Keith Granet.
Keith Granet, president of his consulting firm Granet & Associates has been advising those in the business since 1991. He is the author of Business of Design, a groundbreaking business book specifically for the design trade. This book was groundbreaking and led to groundbreaking changes in the way many designers view the business of design and their roles as business owners, not just creatives. Granet now has a new book abut the business of design and listen, if you are going to wait 20 years for the sequel, the expectations are obviously high and the timing for this could not be better.
This book covers new ideas relating to changes in the design business today, markedly different from what it was in 1991 when his first book was released. The Business of Design: Balancing Creativity and Profitability is the subject of this episodes of Convo By Design and another edition of the Wellness and Design Thought Leadership presented by ThermaSol.
If you are not already subscribing to the podcast,please do so you get every episode automatically when they are published. You can find Convo By Design everywhere you find your favorite podcasts and now, you can find us on DesignNetwork dot Org, a destination dedicated to podcasts, all things design and architecture so make sure to check it out. And , if you need some help, ask Alexa or Siri for help. Just Say, “hey Siri, play Convo By Design podcast?” And, she will!
Thank you, Keith. Excellent catching up with you. Thank you Walker Zanger for presenting Convo By Design you are remarkable partners and amazing allies for the trade. Thank you ThermaSol for presenting the Wellness and Design Thought Leadership Series. And, thank you for listening. As you may have noticed, Convo By Design is bringing you design talent from all across the country. It’s not just about LA and New York, but Maine, South Florida and Portland, Oregon. We are so rich in talent that sometimes, we miss some of the gems. Keep those email coming, email me with show suggestions and feel free to suggest a designer, architect or other creative you think the editorial team should be aware of. Thanks again for listening, remember why you do what you do and that the business of design is about making better the lives of those we serve. Until next week, be well and take today first.
